Lee key drive slugs in my muzzle loading double?......

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jmars

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I have a 12 gauge Navy Arms Pietta double made in 1977, cylinder bores in both barrels.

I have a bunch of Lee Key Drive 7/8 oz. 12 gauge slugs that are intended to be loaded in shotshells with modern plastic wads.
The slugs themselves measure about .669 in diameter.

What do ya think about using this slug and plastic wads in my shotgun?

Would there be a better method instead of the plastic wads, for instance cutting off the shot cup and using it and the slug in front of card wads? Using the slug with a cloth patch? Or....what?

I'm not intending to whack any critters; just playing.

Thanks! :)
 
I made some X patches for mine from old blue jeans. The slugs were not very accurate though.
FYI, an X patch looks somewhat like a Celtic cross or an iron cross.

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You'll likely have horrible accuracy if you could call it that. 12ga is about .730cal so you got a lot of windage to deal with in the Lee slugs.

FWIW, we shoot smoothbores in competition and most of use have no more than about .005 windage and get pretty darn good accuracy. I'd imagine something like that would be operative in your 12ga. If you could find some slugs at .725ish, I'd start there.
 
I use a 3-step process.

First, use a 5/8" dowel cut to a length of 1-3/8" and paper wrap it (full length) to be just a couple of thousandths more in diameter than the O.D. of my Lee slugs, using a glue stick to secure the paper to the dowel.

Second, wrap the dowel with another strip paper, the width of which is cut to the length of the dowel plus the length of the slug (in my case, 2") and of sufficient length to wrap twice around the dowel (about 4" or so). When wrapping, align the side edge of the paper with one end of the dowel. This in effect makes a tube with one end plugged by the dowel and the other end open to receive the slug and keep it alignment with the dowel. Here again, a glue stick is used to secure the paper.

Third, put a dab of GOOP adhesive on the bottom of the slug and slide it into the open end of the paper tube, making sure it seats firmly on the dowel. Then, again using the glue stick, wrap the whole mess a third time with another strip of 1-3/4" wide paper of a length sufficient to bring the diameter up to a sliding fit to the bore of your shotgun. You will need to experiment with this.

The poplar dowel section I use weigh about 55 grains each and the paper and paste add perhaps an additional 10-15 grains (I haven't weighed them). Loaded over 85 grains of GOEX 2fg and a lubed fiber cushion wad, and retained with a thin over-shot card wad, these will reliably hit the black of a 25-yard pistol target fired from a range of 15 yards from my CVA 12ga. double.

This might be more trouble than you want to fool with, and I apologize if my description is not quite clear enough. In reality it is pretty simple but it does take some time. Good luck in your experimentation and have fun!
 
I have a bunch of Lee Key Drive 7/8 oz. 12 gauge slugs that are intended to be loaded in shotshells with modern plastic wads.
The slugs themselves measure about .669 in diameter
.

I don't know why folks tell you they won't be "accurate" if you put them into a plastic shot cup. IF the barrels are truly 12 gauge, and the slugs are made to shoot from a shotshell where they are loaded inside a plastic shotcup type wad....then they have every bit of a chance of having the same accuracy from your muzzle loader as you might get from a vintage, smooth bore, slug barrel on a pump shotgun. I have such for my old Remington 870 at at 50 yards with a Brenneke type slug, the cylinder bore slug barrel puts holes that touch at 50 yards. Beyond 75 yards the accuracy is crap...so IF I was hunting deer, I'd keep the shot inside of 50 yards. I have no idea what that Lee slug will do as far as groups.

Now depending on how the barrels were "regulated"...you may find you have some odd "kentucky windage" when holding that front sight bead on the target to get the slug to hit where you want..., but the same would be true for a vintage breech loading shotgun SxS shooting shotshell slugs.....

Muzzle Velocity is Muzzle Velocity, and the slug doesn't know if it got it's speed from smokeless powder or from Black Powder, or from a substitute for Black Powder. Of course the faster it's going the less drop, but on the other hand if like me and my "old school barrel" on a modern shotgun, if you check the groups at 50 yards you may have success. I settled on one specific load for my shotgun simply because it was the only one that shot well. You may have to tweek yours to get the same.

You should also try unpatched round ball. .715 round ball will have a .007 gap around the circumference of the ball in your 12 gauge barrel. Use a plain fiber wad, or crush up some newsprint to form a wad upon loading, or you could use a wad of tow...and be sure to put a wad on top of the ball too to hold it in place. There is a reason why even hunters back when smooth bore flinters and caplocks were the norm, didn't use a patch. The patch folds different around the ball every time. In a rifle, the grooves not only impart spin, but also give a place for the patch to bunch up as it wraps around the ball, and it's a consistent pattern, every time. You don't get a consistent pattern with the smooth bore each time, so you actually may find it less accurate than a "bare ball".

The only other problem you have is that sometimes the inexpensive, plastic shot cups don't mix well with black powder, and especially with Pyrodex. (Pyrodex burns "hotter") They have a tendency to melt. I had a real problem in the past with AA brand shotshell cups and Pyrodex. Left a lot of plastic crap in my barrel that was the devil trying to get it out, and if you don't get it out it can create a minor obstruction. I had to use some very very old solvent with Benzene. Other guys have found brake cleaner will melt the stuff out.

LD
 
The plastic wads are needed to better fill the bore diameter. Pure lead slugs expand on firing with smokeless powder. Black powder may also??

The design of the stock (side plates) may not hold up well with heavy loads.
 
I use a 3-step process.

First, use a 5/8" dowel cut to a length of 1-3/8" and paper wrap it (full length) to be just a couple of thousandths more in diameter than the O.D. of my Lee slugs, using a glue stick to secure the paper to the dowel.

Second, wrap the dowel with another strip paper, the width of which is cut to the length of the dowel plus the length of the slug (in my case, 2") and of sufficient length to wrap twice around the dowel (about 4" or so). When wrapping, align the side edge of the paper with one end of the dowel. This in effect makes a tube with one end plugged by the dowel and the other end open to receive the slug and keep it alignment with the dowel. Here again, a glue stick is used to secure the paper.

Third, put a dab of GOOP adhesive on the bottom of the slug and slide it into the open end of the paper tube, making sure it seats firmly on the dowel. Then, again using the glue stick, wrap the whole mess a third time with another strip of 1-3/4" wide paper of a length sufficient to bring the diameter up to a sliding fit to the bore of your shotgun. You will need to experiment with this.

The poplar dowel section I use weigh about 55 grains each and the paper and paste add perhaps an additional 10-15 grains (I haven't weighed them). Loaded over 85 grains of GOEX 2fg and a lubed fiber cushion wad, and retained with a thin over-shot card wad, these will reliably hit the black of a 25-yard pistol target fired from a range of 15 yards from my CVA 12ga. double.

This might be more trouble than you want to fool with, and I apologize if my description is not quite clear enough. In reality it is pretty simple but it does take some time. Good luck in your experimentation and have fun!
Thank you Acorn Mush for your post. That is very interesting, but it sounds like an ordeal! Your post is very clear.
I'm unlikely to try your method, but I may paper patch some dowel and try shooting that. :)
 
Thank you Acorn Mush for your post. That is very interesting, but it sounds like an ordeal! Your post is very clear.
I'm unlikely to try your method, but I may paper patch some dowel and try shooting that. :)
The "ordeal" isn't really too bad. And besides, Winter has only just begun.... . :)
 
Agree with Loyalist Dave, plastic wads should be fine, it's the barrel regulation that is gonna take some getting used to. Sam Fadala did some experiments on a double barrel trying to get it to shoot round ball with limited success. I don't believe he tried plastic shot cups. I have used them for years with no issues of melted plastic left in the barrel.
 
One big issue is if you are loading both barrels with slugs, after firing one you'll need to check the other to be sure the slug hasn't lifted off the powder under recoil. If it has, reseat it as it could act as an obstruction causing a blowup. Remove cap before checking/reseating.
I've shot the Lyman 12 ga slug from a Navy arms double quite a few times. Cloth patched like a round ball. Make it tight. Was o.k. to fifty yards but no great shakes. Round balls worked better.
I don't know how folks get the idea that modern rifled slugs "expand" from the powder gasses in modern shells. The gasses come nowhere near the base of the slug due to either card and fiber or plastic wads between them and the powder. I've fired and recovered hundreds of modern slugs, both factory and reloaded, and almost always find "skid' marks on one side or the other. This is the reason that Federaal came out with the Truball slugs, having a round ball attached to the wad to keep the slug centered in the bore.
Now, using a pure lead slug, paper patched or just under bore size in a ML might allow the skirt to fill the bore under firing but I'd only load one side of a double with it to prevent recoil movement of the other one. As a matter of fact, I did fire a few Lyman and Lee slugs from my Pedersoli 72 caliber rifle and while I didn't recover any slugs, the groups were far better than anything I got out of a smoothbore (and I had a Pedersoli Mortimer shotgun as control.)
 
I don't know how folks get the idea that modern rifled slugs "expand" from the powder gasses in modern shells.

Its the setback from going from 0 to top speed in a split second , that makes the diameter larger. Rifled barrels and soft cast bullets may slump also when fired.

The pure lead Lee slug will cut a peddle off a plastic wad, as it expands in a slug barrel. Not every time. But when it does , its a flyier.
 
Many moons ago I tried with my Brown Bess .75 musket.
Patched the daylights outta em with paper towels from work, and used a goodly amount of more paper wadding.
Got center of mass at 50yds reliably. Some tumbled but most were straight through and through.

Still have some that I need to shoot at something sometime.
 
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