Legality towards concealing a BP handgun.

[Pyro]

Hello,
Not new to forums but new here. I was reading reviews on the Pietta .44 1851 black powder revolver and one man claimed you are able to conceal/carry the firearm without a permit (in FL in his case). Now I too own one of these guns and I did not have to fill any paperwork for it to register it.
As far as I know these guns are under the category of "Antiques" and for the most part are exempted from normal gun restrictions as long as they are not modified to shoot modern rimfire or centerfire rounds.
Why is this? A .44 round lead ball with a 20 grain charge is generally the "norm" in these revolers but I've heard people putting up to 40 or even 50 in them (if 50 would even fit). I would not want one of these flying at me and is by far much larger then a little .22lr that does require you to register and abide by the NFA. Is it because you can't exactly reload a black powder revolver in the middle of a shootout? But how often do shootouts in the streets (self-defense is the subject here since the man is claiming to conceal carry it for that use) last long enough to need a reload? If anyone has ever seen the 1858 Remington black powder by Pietta (which shoots .44's and does not require a registration just like the 1851) you can get pretty quick with speedloading those cylinders (example). You can buy replacement cylinders for some of the models that accept modern centerfire bullets in place of the black powder cylinder.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4776.html
Again that cylinder if for the 1858 Remy that has speedloading capabilities. Also "pocket" versions of these handguns are available too.
So I'm just a bit confused with the legality of all this. And don't think that I'm gonna start carrying one of those hunks of brass and steel around with me in the city I'm just curious towards how the NFA goes about all this and how is it applied.

 

[rtpzwms]

sounds like a call to the local LEO would be better than here. You need to know how they would behave. I think it would be better to go to the front of the horse.. You might also check with the state DOJ.

 

[hirundo82]

Don't start trying to look for reason in gun control laws; it'll just give you a headache.

Probably the best explanation for the fact that black powder guns aren't regulated as firearms federally or in most states is that they are very rarely used in crimes. If there was an epidemic (or even just a few well-publicized cases) of convicted felons carrying and using BP handguns in crimes the laws would probably be changed.

Oh, and the piece of federal legislation controlling this is not the National Firearms Act, which was passed in 1934 and regulated machineguns, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, and silencers (suppressors). Ordinary handguns, rifles, and shotguns are regulated by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

 

[Rail Driver]

I wouldn't call local LEO, I would call the district attorney for your area, or a lawyer that deals in firearms laws in your area. Local LEO's rarely are up to date on laws.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Why is this? A .44 round lead ball with a 20 grain charge is generally the "norm" in these revolers but I've heard people putting up to 40 or even 50 in them (if 50 would even fit). I would not want one of these flying at me and is by far much larger then a little .22lr that does require you to register and abide by the NFA. Is it because you can't exactly reload a black powder revolver in the middle of a shootout?

You have made the classic mistake of trying to associate gun laws with crime reduction or public safety. That is not why they exist, proven clearly by the very point you make in your post.

Gun control laws are about control. The majority of people interested in owning guns don't care anything about BP firearms, therefore the control aspect is useless.

So, if the number of people you can control is that small why make a law?

And keep in mind that's only a Federal thing, many states consider a loaded and ready to fire BP firearm to meet the definition of "firearm" in that state so carrying one concealed isn't necessarily legal everywhere.

 

[bindingposts]

I would say a firearm is defined as any any weapon used to shoot a projectile with a explosion. Black power or conventional cartridge, they would be the same.

 

[Pyro]

Thank you for some of your clarifications and corrections everyone. Yes it looks like I am going to have to ask this up front to those in control around here for some dead-on answers.
And to replay on bindingposts comment how would you define a 20mm air rifle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbiPydusWmk

 

[TexasRifleman]

I would say a firearm is defined as any any weapon used to shoot a projectile with a explosion. Black power or conventional cartridge, they would be the same.

Many states, and Federal law, disagree with you. Or, more correctly, many laws identify those things as "antique firearms" and exempt them from most regulation.

 

[hirundo82]

I would say a firearm is defined as any any weapon used to shoot a projectile with a explosion. Black power or conventional cartridge, they would be the same.

How federal law defines a firearm:
18 USC §921

3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

So if it uses commercially available fixed ammunition it (in general) is a firearm.

And to replay on bindingposts comment how would you define a 20mm air rifle?

Since it doesn't use fixed ammunition it doesn't fit the definition of a firearm under federal law, except it is probably a destructive device.

18 USC §921 Definitions
(4) The term “destructive device” means—
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter

 

[TexasRifleman]

Since it doesn't use fixed ammunition it doesn't fit the definition of a firearm under federal law, except it is probably a destructive device.

Air doesn't meet the definition of "propellant", so a 20mm air gun is not regulated at all under Federal law. Keep in mind there is more to the definition of DD's than has been posted so far. Federal law continues:

The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.

That's why black powder cannons are not DD's.

 

[Zoogster]

In most states carrying a capped and loaded black powder firearm is considered carrying a loaded firearm.
Discharging a black powder firearm is discharging a firearm.
All relevant laws apply.
Obviously laws on self defense apply as well, regardless of the tool used.


Most use of black powder firearms are subject to the same laws.

Purchase is different because most laws on purchase are at the federal level. Some states however include far more in their definition and requirements for purchase, transport and use. Some states even include airguns in general, or airguns over a certain caliber as "firearms" as well as black powder guns.


Few people including criminals would want a large cloud of smoke when they fire. A black powder drive by would be interesting, and the driver probably couldn't even see well enough to drive.
The big smoke cloud would also announce to everyone within blocks exactly where the shot came from.
Black powder firearms also requires hand loading a proper charge virtually every time it is used, something more complicated than your typical thug is going to deal with.
Many black powder handguns are also single action only requiring cocking of the hammer between each shot, which is far from ideal in any firefight against modern firearms.



But like others have said the laws are not really based on any of this. Gun control laws are based on control, and at the federal level they have little fear of typical black powder guns.
The guns they wish to go after are those that can really be used to resist tyranny or otherwise be dangerous to modern federal troops/LEO who will be wearing body armor and armed with modern firearms themselves.
Precisely why they were so intent on going after military 'style" rifles for years even though they were involved in a tiny fraction of all crimes.
(Rifles are involved in less than 10% of homicides total and in almost all categories including police officer deaths, and typically far less than even that.)
It is not about crime, it is about control.
There is little control to be gained targeting black powder arms.

 

[TexasRifleman]

In most states carrying a capped and loaded black powder firearm is considered carrying a loaded firearm.

That's probably true, but I've never been able to find it spelled out very clearly. It's what most people usually use as the deciding factor, loaded and capped. Probably a safe bet as well.

 

[dogrunner]

Far as Florida law goes, that firearm is an antique and considered a non-firearm but still a weapon...........therefore it is STILL illegal to conceal it, much as it"d be illegal to conceal a hunting knife less a concealed weapons license.

That BP firearm is NOT exempt entirely from the law, and if used in the commission of a crime it's status changes............Most sincerely suggest you read ch. 790, in particular definations clause at the beginning.

Interestingly, while it's illegal generally to carry an unconcealed firearm, those bp guns are exempt as they're not defined as a firearm unless used in a crime and are just as ok as if one was openly packing a machete or belt knife.

 

[Cosmoline]

Look to your code:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/0790.html

The federal distinction between firearms and non-firearms means little or nothing when it comes to state laws on these matters. Typically the law prohibits concealed weapons of a broad description.

 

[rtpzwms]

From Zoogster
A black powder drive by would be interesting, and the driver probably couldn't even see well enough to drive.

LAMO dude all I could vision was Cheeh and Chong in up in smoke driving the van while it was smoking....