Lever gun vs Body armor

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DSRUPTV

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What calibers commonly offered in lever action rifles would be suffecient to penetrate body armor if needed? The unfortunate events in Tyler, TX got me thinking about this. My guess is 30-30 would penetrate, but below that I'm not sure. I have a 45-70 and I'm pretty sure it would defeat armor. All input to quell my curiosity would be appreciated.
 
A friend of mine took his Marlin Guide Gun to check this. Some one donated an old vest. They draped it over an upright railroad tie. I don't know what the distance was. The 45-70 didn't penetrate the kevlar. However, the kevlar around the bullet penetrated the railroad tie a couple of inches. I don't think anyone wearing that vest would have been interested in anything but the nearest hospital, at most.
 
"However, the kevlar around the bullet penetrated the railroad tie a couple of inches."

Neat, with a clean T-shirt underneath it's a self-bandaging gunshot wound. :)
 
The manufacturers call that phenomenon "Back Face Deformation". It's their dirty little secret about body armor. Yes officer your vest will stop that 12 ga slug, BUT the back face deformation will be 4-5 inches which means that your sternum will be shattered and shoved back all the way to your spine and bone splinters will probably pierce your heart/lungs. You are still dead but there are no "HOLES" in your chest. Thats why most modern vests carry a ceramic trauma plate centered over the sternum/heart to prevent this. One of my partners took a point blank shot to the stomach from a .357 (125gr jhp). His armor stopped the slug but he had a lot of deep tissue damage that required surgery from the back face deformation. Vests are not perfect but they sure beat the alternative!
 
Perhaps you should look into some of those 'Accelerator' rounds for your .30-30, they push a .22 cal 55gr bullet at 3400 fps.....
 
This is why I don't see the huge attraction (other than ammo commonality) of pistol caliber carbines of any sort.... If you are carrying a long gun, you might as well be carrying the advantages of a long gun, IMO. 5.56 or 7.62x39, and you have no more worries about penetrating body armor. Or make it a 30/30 if you go with a lever gun. Those would be my picks.
 
In one of Coopers commentaries a while back, he mentioned an LEO that had been hit by a 30-30 round, it didn't penetrate, but he was out of the fight.

I keep some Accelerators handy. When I'm traveling and staying in motel rooms, or visiting family in a town, I keep them handy for the Winchester carbine. Somewhat less overpenetration than 170 gr loads. I suppose they would work OK on a vest, but that isn't why I got them.
 
.30-30, .32 WCF, and .45-70 would all work, except against the stuff with plates.

The Tyler shooter wore both a vest AND a flak jacket, so it might still be risky using anything below a full-power rifle round.
 
I'm interested in the 45.70 rounds that were used. I have some Buffalo Bore that are pretty hot and wonder what they'd do to the vest.
 
vest....

i imagine it would carry to the maximum, the definition of: "blunt force trauma" don't you agree??? :cool:
 
Mulliga I agree, flak-jacket 90% chance means level IIa, or worse if Vietnam. The odds of it meaning Interceptor are slim->none. Double that (17 or 19 layers iirc) with a level II and you are about around level IIIa protection, for the number of layers. Of course that is old Kevlar, I think it's called 129, while new stuff is 149, and so on. If he wore a level IIIa vest with a flak-jacket there's not much benefit - over 100 layers won't protect you from a normal spitzer high velocty bullet.

jcs271, I agree about back face deformation too. NIJ tests have one test where the vest worn by a clay block - special government clay. They shoot and measure the indent in the clay, to be certified to a level the indent can't exceed X# cetimeters. However, I think that the ceramic plates are not designed for this, in fact I think they're called ballistic plates, and are almost a foot-square. They are worn outside the vest, ceramic is harder than lead or steel, so the bullet breaks when it hits the plate. If the fragments go through the plate, the IIIa vest catches them. Trauma plates like other vests have fit inside the vest like you describe, but they can be around 40" square, and they can be made of steel, fibreglass, or even just more soft armor material.

I think that vest material is made to be stiff by the binding agent holding the layers together, probably a trade secret sort of stuff. If the vest is stiff enough, and it can distribute the impact over an area the size of, say, 2 square inches, then the impact would feel just 2-3 times harder than the rifle recoiling into the shooter's shoulder.
 
there are several non tube magazine lever guns,chamberd for many spitzer style rifle rounds
 
.30-30 will definitely penetrate II and IIIa, probably not III (but most III is external SWAT-style, I think).
 
Someone mentioned pistol caliber carbines being useless....I disagree, they are far more accurate than a pistol, so head shots are perfectly feasable and they can be fired very rapidly while sacrificing very little in actual accuracy. Great weapons for somthing like say, a building raid.
 
Levers

Yes, lever guns fed from other than the magazine tube like the Browning BLR, Browning/Winchester 1895 and 71, Savage 99, and Winchester 88(or is it the 100?). Tube fed there's the Winchester lever in .307(.308 ballistics) and the .356. I'd like a take-down lever in .307Winchester for a truck gun. :D
 
I agree, if you're going to be carry a longarm you might as well get one in a medium caliber rifle - .223 or 7.62x39 or something.

NIJ standards say that the back face deformation cannot exceed 44mm. Level II specs say they can resist a 9mm bullet fired from a 16" barrel; about 1450fps, which is pretty fast!

My Second Chance vest says that it will also defeat .44 magnum fired perpendicular to the vest, which is pretty cool considering it's "only" a level II vest.
 
For anything reasonable, I believe that a normal SP .30-30 round will function just like any military spitzer, i.e. it will function just as if the vest or whatever wasn't there. I don't think it's got so much to do with the shape of the projectile as with its mass and velocity. I haven't got any kevlar vests or flak jackets to perform actual tests on, but a .30-30 at 50 yards will penetrate 1/4" mild steel plate, with a hole that looks like it was made by a drill. It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever done a test on the available vests with a variety of centerfire rifle rounds.
As far as opposing anyone in a situation similar to that in the Tyler, TX shooting, while I think it was very brave for the Samaritan in this case to attempt to stop the shooting, the disparity in armaments in itself worked against success. As a famous philosopher, one Mr. Volonte, remarked in A Fistful of Dollars "When the man with a pistol meets a man with a rifle, the man with the pistol is a dead man." While in that particular flick he proved the exception to his own rule, in real life I wouldn't care to test it.
 
The manufacturers call that phenomenon "Back Face Deformation". It's their dirty little secret about body armor.
Not a "dirty little secret" at all. Penetration and back face deformation are both considered when rating a vest to stop certain round. The vest must prevent both penetration and excessive back face deformation before it can be considered effective against a particular round.
 
Kevlarman - GET A NEW VEST! The thin fabic part of the vest is called the 'shell' or 'carrier', if there is a label on it Don't trust it! You should be able to remove the panels from your vest, and they ought to have writing somewhere on them. It sounds like someone gyped you (no offence to gypsies). Or else one of the I's wore off the tags. Still, don't trust what the carrier says, only trust the panels. And if there is any confusion call the manufacturer with your discrpetancy, they could tell you how much each panel ought to weigh for that particular model, and stuff. Just to clarify, if you have a II hot 9's would go through it like butter!


Search for tests and this is home-made one. PASGT has about the same # layers as would qualify for a type IIa, but other design features disqualify it from testing.

"http://savvysurvivor.com.cnchost.com/PASGTarmortest.htm"


This is from Ammo Oracle, a sweet place:


"NIJ Standard-0101.04 establishes six formal armor classification types, as well as a seventh special type, as follows:

Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP). This armor protects against .22 long rifle lead round nose (LR LRN) bullets, with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less and against .380 ACP full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN), with nominal masses of 6.2 g (95 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less.

Type II-A (9mm; .40 S&W). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 332 m/s (1090 ft/s) or less and
.40 S&W caliber full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets, with nominal masses of 11.7 g (180 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I threats.

Type II (9mm; .357 Magnum). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 358 m/s (1175 ft/s) or less and
.357 Magnum jacketed soft point (JSP) bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I and Type IIA threats.

Type III-A (High Velocity 9mm; .44 Magnum). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FJM RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less and .44 Magnum jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets, with nominal masses of 15.6 g (240 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the Type I, II-A and II threats.

Type III (Rifles). This armor protects against 7.62mm full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets (U.S. military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.6 g (148 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 838 m/s (2750 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I through III-A threats.

Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle). This armor protects against .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (US military designation M2 AP), with nominal masses of 10.8 g (166 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of
869 m/s (2850 ft/s) or less. It also provides at least single-hit protection against the Type I through III threats."
 
??

The panels on my Second Chance vest are NIJ level II rated. The carrier itself says that it "has no ballistic qualities."

I'm not a complete moron to buy a vest with nothing inside. :p

And remember, the old NIJ 0101.04 standard only tested two types of rounds for each level. The manufacturers themselves test several different rounds to see what their vests can stop. I guess my II won't stop a 9mm from a carbine, but my IIIa will!

http://www.secondchance.com/information/stoppingpower.htm

My vests are 100% Kevlar so I'm not affected by the Zylon fiasco. :neener:
 
Perhaps you should look into some of those 'Accelerator' rounds for your .30-30, they push a .22 cal 55gr bullet at 3400 fps.....

The only thing with that is that you can only load 2 rounds safely- one in the chamber and one in the mag.
 
Right, the tube mag of lever guns does not allow for pionty ammo because the recoil can cause the point of one round in the magazine to hit the primer in the next round, thereby setting it off.

The Tyler case was interesting. Soft body armor is best penetrated by pionty things like ice picks and pointy rifle ammo. The higher level soft body armor will stop almost all pistol ammo except for a couple of types like the FiveseveN. However, part of what makes body armor work is the number of layers being used. The Tyler gunman had a flak vest over a ballistic vest (of unknown rating to me). While the flak vest would not stop much ammo, it certainly might do enough to slow some down such that the ballistic vest underneath would be able to stop cartridge calibers and types that it otherwise would not be able to stop if acting alone.

So, blunt rounds fired from a lever gun, even if powerful enough in a pointy configuration will have difficulty penetrating multiple layers of body armor in their blunt tip configuration.
 
I've got to remind everyone that the ~.311" bullet the CZ52 carries, with a ball profile, has no problem penetrating up to level IIIa body armor in tests, and some hot loaded rounds will get trhough that too.

I don't see much difference between this and the 30-30. All you have to do is get the kevlar fibers to try and stretch so fast that the load can't be spread and it'll cut through like a hot knife through butter because individual fibers will break and spread from around the nose of the bullet.
 
Quote:
"Perhaps you should look into some of those 'Accelerator' rounds for your .30-30, they push a .22 cal 55gr bullet at 3400 fps....."


"The only thing with that is that you can only load 2 rounds safely- one in the chamber and one in the mag."


Remington doesn't make this distinction. They make no notice or anouncement regarding loading them into tube mags. The reason this is possible I believe, is that the bulets used in the 30-30 Accelerator rounds is slightly more blunt than any other 22 high power bullet I've seen, and they have a much larger exposed lead portion. This bullet apears to be made specifically for the Accelerator load. Still farily pointy, but with a soft lead tip. I think at that velocity level it would still defeat soft armor.
 
Heh, kevlarman yea I was just thinking that some guy sold you a vest marked level II, but said it would stop .44 mag, or doctored a tag somehow. According to most sources, it won't stop .44 mag safely.

As for round-nose penetrating 60 layers of kevlar, I think someone ought to do a test! Box-o-truth!

Plus there's the new 'goldfelx' style stuff, where you don't weave the threads like fabric, the threads are laid parallel in a layer and each layer is turned 90 degrees. Apparantly this gives a significant increase in protection, because the old 'weaving' method weakened the threads.

My personal suspicion is that penetating kevlar threads 60 layers deep is going to resemble the science behind penetrating tank armors, either case you are just pushing through a material. Since Kevlar is soft, and the resin it's bound in is soft, the best characteristics for a projectile would be pointy, fast, long and hard. Either characteristic alone would be good, but I'd say pointy and fast would be the biggest priorities - ie 5.7mm and 4.6mm.

Ironically, pointy and hard would do the most behind the armor damage, no? A more stable bullet wouldn't tumble in the body, but an unstable pointy bullet will tumble before it exits, hopefully. I'm just thinking about the bullets the Italians used in WW2, long round heavy things that were TOO stable.
 
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