Llama model IV mags (and some not well known info about Llamas)

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tmaca

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Yeah, everyone knows Llamas are worthless. Except that they aren't. Depends on when they were made. Gabilondo & Urresti were gunmakers in Eibar, Spain in 1904, moving to Elgoibar in 1918 and after WWII to Vitoria. In 1993 a co-op of gunsmiths and employees took over, opening a new factory in Legutiano. Mostly, Llama produced good, reliable guns, their autos, up to the 1980's were dead ringers for the Colt 1911 A1. You could even swap some components from a Colt, and more could be swapped with a little gunsmithing. So why the lousy reputation in the US? That's a bit of a tale.

Before WWI G & U introduced the Ruby, a reliable 7.62mm/.32ACP autoloader with a 9 round magazine (as opposed to the then normal 6 or 7 round mags). Based on (some would say copied from) the Browning 1903, it was intended to be a military/police pistol, and in 1915 they got a contract from the French military for 10,000 a month. But in 3 months that target went up to 30K a month and then to 50K. And French demand kept growing. G & U partnered with first 4, then another 3, other gunmakers in an unsuccessful attempt to meet the demand. Eventually the French contracted directly with over 40 other companies to make Rubys. And with all those additional companies making Rubys, quality slipped and by the end of the war most of the Rubys out there were less than quality guns. Since G & U "owned" the Ruby, their reputation took a big hit. From 1919 to 1932 they kept making improved models of the Ruby, as well a the Bufalo and the Danton (based on the Browning FN model 1910). But in 1933, in an apparent attempt for a clean break from the bad reputation from the Ruby (although they hadn't made any of the bad ones) they introduced what was to be the brand of everything they made in the future, "Llama" (which means Flame in Spanish).

The first gun off the Llama production line was the Llama model IV. Again designed for military/police use, it was referred to as a 9mm largo (9mm Long, a 9x23) but had what they called a "tolerant" chamber, and could also use .38ACP. Some claimed it could also handle some of the other several versions of 9mm that were around Europe in those days. The 9mm Largo, developed in 1903, is essentially the same cartridge as the "new" 9x23 Winchester. The only difference is the Win gets an increase of 100 fps, 77ft.lbs., and 12.25 on power factor. The model IV wasn't made for export to America, but for European sales to governments.

They eventually made Models I through XII, variously in .22, .25, .32, .380, 9mm. 9mm Largo, .38 Super and .45. They also made a series of revolvers which seem to me (I don't know much about their revolvers) to be copies of S&W revolvers. With all these varied guns, all well made, accurate, and reliable, what happened? One word. Age. In the 1970s they were still making guns with machinery that was from either just after WWII or in some instances even older. It wasn't until the '93 move to Legutiano that they got new machinery and also started making more modern, high capacity, pistols. As the factory equipment got old and worn, the product suffered, and quality control slipped. Just during the period when Americans started taking autoloading pistols seriously, Llama was shipping a lot of guns of poor quality, with the dimensions of some components off enough to affect both initial function and overall reliability. So they have a rep here as cheap junk. And even though after '93 they were making good guns again, when the Japanese real estate crisis hit, and Spanish banks, heavily invested there, got in trouble, and business credit disappeared, although the company was on the upswing they weren't getting ahead quickly enough to handle all the debt they'd inherited from the original Llama in '93. They were able to reschedule debts a couple of times, but finally had to close the factory in 2005.

I've had Llamas since I used a model III (a .380) in the '70s as an off duty gun when I was a cop in a city back East. I've never had a single problem with any of them, and I've had models in every caliber from .380 to .45. But I was aware of the QC problems that resulted in a lot of "iffy" guns, and never bought a Llama made between 1973 and 1993. With a Llama made in that period, you might get a good gun, or you might get a bunch of problems. Avoid those years and you'll almost certainly get a good, accurate, and reliable pistol at a really low price.

So, finally, the magazines. I have one of those model IV 9mm Largos. Proofed in 1944, lacking the marks it should have if it had been imported in the states, being a model not intended for sale in the US, and being a model that was sold just to governments as a military/police gun, it's about 97% certain that it was owned by one or another of the warring powers during WWII. Germany, for example, bought a lot of Llamas in WWII, but if it had been theirs it'd be marked, and it isn't. Unfortunately, with Llama long gone, there's no way to check the SN and verify just who bought it. And this Llama DOES have a problem, even though it functions perfey, namely that I'm down to 2 mags can't idt mags for it. Llama .38 Super mags would work, the cartridge dimensions are nearly identical. Colt 1911 .38 Super mags can work, but not always. So does anyone have, or know who does have, Llama 9mm Largo, or even Llama .38 Super mags? And no, none of the usual suspects, like Numrich for example, have them.
 
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I have a Llama "Especial" in 45 ACP that was bought circa 1968. It came with two magazines, that aren't the same, but they both work just fine. This old gun has never let me down. It's rough as a cob and has a weird ventilated rib on the slide, but it handles both RN and FMJ just fine.

Some things to me are just not worth worrying about. My Llama will very likely never be more than a range fun gun so I just live with two magazines. I generally want at least five magazines per gun, but in this case I closed the book on magazine searches last century.
 
Llama

I've had a Llama especial in .22 lr for 30 years and has been a fun shooter , like a miniature 1911. still looking at gun shows for magazines though.
 
You ought to try Colt .22 cal 1911 mags. I've found that in the more "common" calibers colt mags work in a Llama more often than they don't.
 
As the couple of comments that have been posted indicate, Llamas are actually good, reliable guns as long as you avoid the years when they were still making them on equipment that was from 35 to 55 years old.

They're both good range guns and good self defense guns. There's even a good, modern, Llama 9mm competition pistol, the M87. IF you can both find and afford one.
 
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