Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)

[Varminterror]

Sorry (again) for a bit of a redirect from the current direction of the thread - but I wanted to dangle a particular carrot for folks thinking about getting into Precision Rifle competition.

“Lights Out” is going on this weekend in Oklahoma. It’s a suppressor only, night time precision rifle match. We started last night about 9pm, finishing up 10 stages around 3am this morning, and do it again tonight. No white lights, suppressed rifles only, targets out to 1088yrds, illuminated reticles and illuminated targets. Glow sticks, headlamps, invisible wind cues, unseen misses, and a ridiculous amount of fun!

My phone skope wouldn’t cooperate on all of my pictures, but you get the idea. Some of the backing berms were visible in the spotlights, but most of the targets are floating in the darkness.

I increased the exposure in the “starlight” photo below to add some detail - colored lights are my squad mates and rifles waiting on the field, laced with glow sticks so we don’t trip over stuff, while the white lights are the targets on the opposite ridgeline.

 

[Walkalong]

device is called L.E. Wilson Case gauge depth micrometer.

I see now, very cool, but you can do the same thing with your dial caliper and a case gauge, although that would be more precise/easier to get good readings. I like it.

 

[Walkalong]

“Lights Out” is going on this weekend in Oklahoma.

Whoa! Seriously cool!

 

[Walkalong]

I mounted the Area 419 Arca Lock rail (Barricade Kit) today, I painted the ground down portion a couple of days ago. Can't tell it's touched up. Krylon PRO Professional in flat black. I had to shorten the screws for the T-Nuts from Foundation. The shoulder of the holes in the rail are deeper than the shoulder of the slot, dunno why, seems odd, so I had to shorten two screws to .370/.380 and three to .390/.400, and of course fix up the threaded ends. Added a dab of blue Loctite to the threads of each one and snugged them down good.

Armageddon only sells the Rail Changer kit with a heavy (5 Lb) Pint Sized bag, so I got it from Area 419 as they offer it with either the heavy or the light (3Lb) Pint Size bag. The rifle is plenty heavy enough.

 

[Varminterror]

A piece of advice, which I was given by another shooter ~2yrs ago, and try to pass on whenever I can. Set the Gamechanger on its side, basically on every obstacle. You get a much more stable platform than when you have the “mouth” pointing down. On stepped barricades, pipe gates and scaffolding, windows/portholes, etc, you want the bag to “bite” the upright, and set your rifle into the side panel of the bag. Even on the center of tank-traps, lay it basically sideways so it bites one of the legs, and support the rifle on the side of the bag. It’s like night and day - they’re pretty stable when biting downward on obstacles (except pipes), but they’re exceptionally solid when laid on their side. The rail-changer seems like it would save time, but you lose points when it rocks over the obstacle and you don’t see your impacts, and you lose time reacquiring targets and fighting to get stable.

Similarly to barricade blocks, if you need to pan on a barricade which isn’t perpendicular to the barricade, you’ll feel the rail-changer trying to pull you back to square. It’s stable, more stable than a naked rifle by a long stretch, but it’s not as stable as a loose bag, laid on its side.

Strokes for folks, but most guys I know who have tried blocks or attached bags come back to a free bag pretty quickly.

 

[Walkalong]

Set the Gamechanger on its side

I assume that is why they have the pieces for holding the rail on the side as well, I need to try it both ways.

most guys I know who have tried blocks or attached bags come back to a free bag pretty quickly.

taliv mentioned that is what he is doing.

I think for now this can save me time. We'll see.

 

[Walkalong]

What are your thoughts on this "Blamm" bag/rail attachment setup?

https://www.blammenterprises.com/product-page/blamm-power-wedge

 

[JFrank]

An old and not so great pic of my 6 PPC "barrel button" as we called them, but you can see where the reamer cut the neck and a tiny bit of the shoulder in the piece of an old barrel.

View attachment 856253

My old friend calls that a Gizzy

 

[Varminterror]

What are your thoughts on this "Blamm" bag/rail attachment setup?

https://www.blammenterprises.com/product-page/blamm-power-wedge

“Bumper bags” like that (for my own lack of a better descriptive name) seemed to be pretty cool 3 years ago, we saw a lot of guys running little grippy bags, brick bags, or wedge bags like that to use in shallow port holes. They ONLY work for guys who are loading against the rifle though, pressing into the barricades/obstacles, which is kind of a thing of the past. Most guys are shooting free recoil, so a wedge which sets partially on top and smashes against the rear face of the obstacle doesn’t get much play. The little brick bags have largely been replaced by pint sized game changers, which seem to fit anywhere which allows the rifle.

In theory, if a guy is driving the rifle instead of free recoiling, and also using a wedge like that as a rear elevator bag, it could work. But for me, a pint sized Game Changer in hand is the fastest and most versatile option. One “trick” to rule them all. This season, I have shot from the tip of T posts, tips of hedge posts, telephone poles, side of concrete culverts, scaffolding, pipe gates, angled pipe cross braces, hunting blind windows, railroad tie walls, tank traps (tips, legs, and centers), truck bed side walls, aircraft windows, from chains and ropes, tractor tires, fiber optic cable spools, and I’m sure a few things I might be forgetting - all using just my barricade bag, shooting free recoil. I then use the same bag as my rear bag for prone matches.

A few years ago, we saw guys carrying half a dozen bags and building pillow forts on the clock. Now, many matches call for “only one bag” used per stage, and usually prohibit construction which defies the spirit of the obstacles (for example, shoving a couple huge bags under the corners of a boat simulator to immobilize it). I don’t even haul a pump pillow any more.

 

[taliv]

i shot a night match like that back in january or february at K&M. it was a lot of fun! it had been about 2.5 years since my last match, so knocking the rust off during a night match was a challenge. i can't remember if i posted a thread and pics of that or not.

from a practical standpoint, it's not terribly unrealistic, as most targets targets you might want to shoot at night are probably illuminated (excluding fur since hunting after dark is illegal in most states), however, i'd much rather have a match with NV. going back 10 years, i posted many threads showing pics through my PVS-27 and CNVD-LR and various NV binos, shooting PRS style targets out to 1100 yards with no white lights at all. It's pretty much my fav type of shooting. (if anyone is interested in old school stuff, check this thread out https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/long-distance-night-shoots.664418/#post-8230798 )

i'm looking forward to the day foundation has a good EFR type solution that sandwiches the stock between the arca rail and EFR.

 

[RussellC]

I see now, very cool, but you can do the same thing with your dial caliper and a case gauge, although that would be more precise/easier to get good readings. I like it.

Yes, I have a Hornady set for use with micrometer, as well as RCBS precision micrometer contraption similar in function to your device, but your Whidden unit is neato and I warned I was a gadget/tool junkie!

Russellc

 

[Walkalong]

I fire formed some more brass today. Now that I know exactly where the lands are I am not seating as hard into the lands to fire form. About .040 into the lands. At this OAL I can eject a non fired round without losing the bullet with factory new brass neck tension, not so much at the longer OAL I first used. Yep, a failure to fire with the flush only seated primer, pulled the case off of the bullet, spilled powder in the action, *Sigh*, but I got it all cleaned up and have the primer issue fixed. I can fix the Sinclair priming tool, I just need to chuck up a part in the lathe, true it up and remove .005 to .007 from one end.

I went back and measured a couple of my old 6 PPC cases and the primer pockets were .123 deep and the Fed 205 Match primers were .120. I checked some old primed cases and the primers were just flush, so even back then my Sinclair priming tool wasn't seating the primers below flush, I was just getting away with it, like I did with 99% of these. The first 100 fire formed cases fired, and all 78 rounds at the match fired, but with this batch of 100 cases and fire forming it bit me in the butt a couple of times. That issue is cured though, now that I have the new priming tool. I could have used my RCBS to seat them deeper, but all 100 fire formed loads fired the first time around, so I went with it. I'm lucky it didn't cause issues at the match.

I fire formed at 300 yards and wore out the bad guy parts hanging out top and bottom, both dialing and holding. I should have painted it first. I did not kill or injure the hostage. I did miss once bottom right, all me.

I practiced firing fast some, concentrating on pulling the trigger straight/fast while maintaining a straight back recoil.

I love this gun.

 

[taliv]

I fire formed at 300 yards and wore out the bad guy parts hanging out top and bottom, both dialing and holding. I should have painted it first. I did not kill or injure the hostage. I did miss once bottom right, all me.

I practiced firing fast some, concentrating on pulling the trigger straight/fast while maintaining a straight back recoil.

I love this gun.

awesome! and fun eh?
now, set an alarm on your phone for 10 seconds. start standing and try to go prone and hit both the bad guy parts before 10 seconds

 

[Walkalong]

heh........sounds like good practice.

 

[taliv]

How fast were you shooting prone?

 

[Walkalong]

I shot off of the bench (Bipod and Armageddon "heavy" Pint Sized Game Changer under the stock (turned up on end)), and was shooting slow to keep the barrel cool, I tried (tried) to take five minutes to shoot ten, then wait 10 minutes, then shoot ten more.

 

[taliv]

Tbh you need to live fire fast to practice seeing trace and correcting wind calls. Everything else including speed drills you can dry fire to keep from cooking your bbl

 

[Varminterror]

Tbh you need to live fire fast to practice seeing trace and correcting wind calls. Everything else including speed drills you can dry fire to keep from cooking your bbl

This, for sure. And use a 22LR or 223rem trainer for some/most of your live fire where appropriate.

I dry fire far, far more than live fire, probably 5:1, but this year, I’m probably shooting my match rifle only 1/5 or so of my live fire.

But doing it “at speed,” is critical.

Saturday night, as an example, I lost a bit of time on a stage - start standing, go prone, and send one shot on each of 5 targets from 680 to 1088, then jump back to 625 and one shot each on a TYL Rack (test your limits, meaning targets get smaller and smaller). I lost time on the first 5 shots on the troop portion and my RO called “20 seconds,” as I was transitioning to the TYL rack. 5 shots in 20 seconds at 625 yards in the dark, with a 6-8mph wind call, on 5 targets shrinking from 12” to 4”. The RO said I had 6 seconds left when I fired my last shot. I held an 8mph wind call on my first shot, which hit towards the wind side, did the same on the 2nd target, so I knew I was holding too much wind, shrank down to a 6mph wind call, sent the 3rd, hit just left of center (wind side), so I knew I still had a little too much wind. I only held 4mph for the last, smallest target. I would have missed on the wind side if I wouldn’t have noticed how the targets were swinging and changed my wind hold - and I would have timed out if I didn’t notice and adjust quickly.

It was fast, but it didn’t feel fast because I practice shooting fast a lot.

 

[taliv]

i think how you do that last part mentally is pretty critical. lots of people do it lots of different ways. for me, the math goes right out the window. i just take a mental image of where the crosshair was when i pulled the trigger and where the bullet landed, and then hold that on the next, one making an adjustment. i mean, i could describe it in mph or mils, but i'm thinking in images. if i have time in the stage, i try to convert back to mph or mils. the danger of doing it that way is you can't do it based on target size, cause the target keeps getting smaller. if it were just a normal plate rack, or row of ipsc targets, it's usually quickest to make an adjustment in terms of the target, instead of measuring with the reticle, but when the target size changes, oops

 

[z7]

One great activity for fire forming brass is barricade work, take a step ladder and work the various steps

Helps to reinforce the dry firing you are doing, assuming you can magazine feed the rounds as you fireform

 

[Walkalong]

but i'm thinking in images.

I did that at the first match, just gut feel/see the space and hold, the worst I did was the mover trying to pull the trigger at a mil and a half instead of just seeing space. Never put any wind in Strelok. That said, the wind wasn't challenging for most of the day.

 

[Varminterror]

i mean, i could describe it in mph or mils, but i'm thinking in images.

This, again. Exactly. For the sake of describing in the thread, I mentioned my mph calls, but I’m not thinking about that math on the clock.

I prepare mentally in advance with the math, meaning I think about the target width versus my wind bracket width, but on the clock, it’s “too much,” or “too little,” “a bit more,” or “a bit less.” If I see a target swing violently from an edge strike, I know to move toward center 1/3 of the target (not half), by adding or removing some wind hold.

Similarly, AFTER the stage, I think about the math again. I know my wind call going in, and the corresponding miles of hold, so I write that down. Then after, I confirm or correct. For that stage, I wrote, “held 8mph, .7mil on 1st 2 TYL, hit wind edge, cut to 6mph, still hit wind side favor on 3rd, cut to 4mph for small.”

So then I think after the stage why my wind call was wrong. Did the direction change? Wind speed? Did I read a wind cue on the field incorrectly (it was dark, so there weren’t any)? Did a landform make the wind at our position read higher than the field?

For that stage, we were ridgelined, shooting over a valley, with the wind coming from 11 o’clock. The direction was shifting a bit, 10:30-11:30, and the wind was 6-8 with obvious, intermittent gusts 12-15mph (full value equivalent, I only measure my effective wind, never raw wind value). I knew the first 5 targets were big, so I didn’t give up my group size from the wind edge of the plate; figure raw group is ~.2mil at 625 prone. I held .3-.4 off of the wind edge, which meant I had a full mil of “not enough wind hold” to catch my bullet, way wider than my wind bracket. But I knew I wasn’t holding so much that I would slip off of the wind side if the wind totally dropped to zero. So I take that with me to the next match - I made a bad wind call because I measured on a ridgeline for protected targets on the upwind side of a valley - next time, I’ll be less generous with the wind.

I think about all of that at practice and before the stage, and I write down whether I was right or wrong after the stage. But on the clock, I ONLY think “too little,” or “too much,” or “a bit less,” or “a lot more,” and make corrections more by the response I see in the field. We can measure it on the reticle, so no sense in thinking about it - just move “that much,” and send the next one.

 

[Walkalong]

Sam, myself, and a fellow from work are going to shoot at a one day match in Blakeley Georgia tomorrow. It's their season finale.

I am seated off the lands this time and my primers are .006/.0065 below flush. Sam will be shooting the last of the factory 6MM Creedmoor ammo.

The Arena

 

[Walkalong]

On a reloading note, in my first batch of 100 fire formed cases I was getting about 1 in 10 rounds with poor run-out when loading them. I felt like it was because I had them jammed too hard when fire forming. That was confirmed this time, as I was not jammed as hard since I had tested for exactly where the lands were, and I was rewarded with all straight rounds. *Little happy dance* (You know, like Snoopy)

 

[taliv]

i need a much better tool to measure runout.