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It’s 50% poor gunsmithing or actions that weren’t designed correctly and 50% poor bolt manipulation
Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)
- Thread starter Walkalong
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It’s 50% poor gunsmithing or actions that weren’t designed correctly and 50% poor bolt manipulation
So, the bolt only has to be raised to move, or do you have to have an open chamber?
Varminterror
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Only HAS to be lifted to move, but we rarely move that way.
Typically we fire, open, move, close. So it’s USUALLY open when we move.
By open, I mean bolt to the rear.
But it’s really common for guys to miscount rounds and close their bolt before they move, then EVERYONE will holler, “next position!” And the RO will holler, “open your bolt.” Guys panic over their misstep and shuck out a loaded round by fully opening, whereas all you really have to do is lift the handle, leaving the round chambered.
Typically we fire, open, move, close. So it’s USUALLY open when we move.
By open, I mean bolt to the rear.
But it’s really common for guys to miscount rounds and close their bolt before they move, then EVERYONE will holler, “next position!” And the RO will holler, “open your bolt.” Guys panic over their misstep and shuck out a loaded round by fully opening, whereas all you really have to do is lift the handle, leaving the round chambered.
Interesting, surprising really, that in a sport where misfeeds lose critical time, which I assume equals points, or at least potential points, that actions which work poorly are used at all.
So, you do not have to have the action open to move, just have the bolt lifted?
Varminterror
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Just lifted is the rule, typically. But nobody lifts on an empty to move, and nobody feeds the next loaded round without locking. Not on purpose at least.
We fire, open & leave it back, drop into the next position, close, fire. It’s just way more natural for all of us to leave it open and back as we move.
Your bolt is not supposed to be closed unless/until you are on target, some RO’s are more finicky than others, if they can tell you don’t have the target in your scope when you close in position. Nobody wants rounds going over the berm.
For gas guns, the rifle has to be put on safe, and the shooter audibly call “Safe!” aloud before moving - since they obviously can’t lock the bolt back.
Bolts must be left open between stages as well. I partially close around a chamber indicator with a flag and a bungee, anchored to my elevation knob.
We fire, open & leave it back, drop into the next position, close, fire. It’s just way more natural for all of us to leave it open and back as we move.
Your bolt is not supposed to be closed unless/until you are on target, some RO’s are more finicky than others, if they can tell you don’t have the target in your scope when you close in position. Nobody wants rounds going over the berm.
For gas guns, the rifle has to be put on safe, and the shooter audibly call “Safe!” aloud before moving - since they obviously can’t lock the bolt back.
Bolts must be left open between stages as well. I partially close around a chamber indicator with a flag and a bungee, anchored to my elevation knob.
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen dudes have a malfunction and then later that day say their rifle has never had a malfunction. It’s like people block it from their consciousness. It happens while they’re buzzer dumb and they don’t even realize it. I have no idea.
taliv said:
Ha! Ha! That's hilarious and so true. Similar things happen all the time in the world of firearms. So many people that have shot a couple of small groups only seem to remember the small groups and in their mind they and their rifle are 1/2 moa all day long.
How frequent is shooting from the weak side in PRS, whether by choice, necessity or direction?
Varminterror
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The malfunctions are also kind of a natural symptom of the sport. You'll have a lot of new guys with untested, unproven gear, or stuff they bought right off of the rack and brought to a match. Even worse if it's a factory rifle like a Savage, Tikka, Rem, or Ruger American which they've pressed into service - they just don't feed fast off of the shelf from factory mags (AI pattern mag compatible models usually excluded here). Or its guys running magpul mags instead of AI metal mags. They make great AR mags, but don't hold a candle to AI mags. Then you have a lot of guys who are tweaking stuff, trying new mags, or building new rifles all of the time.
I will say - in general - most stages offer plenty of time to have a feed hiccup, as long as you don't spew rounds all over the deck, and your don't end up with a stuck follower or something. The first few matches I shot with my Seekins, I hadn't tuned my mag lips, and feeding was terrible. I'd time out on a few stages each match because I was fighting the rifle. After I got used to the pace, and got used to building positions in practice, I don't feel rushed at all if I have to swap mags. I mentioned that over-stuffed AW mag above - I tried for a few seconds to jam the round out of it, swapped mags laying prone, and fed 2 from the quiver and still got 12rnds out to 730yrds within 90sec. Didn't feel rushed at all, even chatted with the RO between shots as to why my mag wouldn't feed --> stupid me, trying something new at a match instead of at practice...
I will say - in general - most stages offer plenty of time to have a feed hiccup, as long as you don't spew rounds all over the deck, and your don't end up with a stuck follower or something. The first few matches I shot with my Seekins, I hadn't tuned my mag lips, and feeding was terrible. I'd time out on a few stages each match because I was fighting the rifle. After I got used to the pace, and got used to building positions in practice, I don't feel rushed at all if I have to swap mags. I mentioned that over-stuffed AW mag above - I tried for a few seconds to jam the round out of it, swapped mags laying prone, and fed 2 from the quiver and still got 12rnds out to 730yrds within 90sec. Didn't feel rushed at all, even chatted with the RO between shots as to why my mag wouldn't feed --> stupid me, trying something new at a match instead of at practice...
The feeding issues I have seen were either s savage, Ruger American, or a 6BRA that was nose diving with every round
I think it is in large part due to the fact bolt guns are going the way of AR’s with 90% doable with a vice and a wrench at home, so a guy orders a chassis, and a barreled action, hangs his own trigger, puts it together, but doesn’t know what to look for in terms of best magazine fit,
Some guys get the mags without a stiffiner plate so they can load the rounds real long, but their action doesn’t have the adequate clearance, so a round hangs up occasionally
@MCMXI weak side shooting is gonna vary, but maybe one stage per club match or more likely one part of one stage
I think it is in large part due to the fact bolt guns are going the way of AR’s with 90% doable with a vice and a wrench at home, so a guy orders a chassis, and a barreled action, hangs his own trigger, puts it together, but doesn’t know what to look for in terms of best magazine fit,
Some guys get the mags without a stiffiner plate so they can load the rounds real long, but their action doesn’t have the adequate clearance, so a round hangs up occasionally
@MCMXI weak side shooting is gonna vary, but maybe one stage per club match or more likely one part of one stage
Varminterror
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Usually every match is going to have part of a stage where you must shoot support hand. Whole stages are pretty unpopular, in my experience. Part of that is accommodation to shooter abilities/disabilities. I would guess I noticed someone at half of the matches I shot last year - not the same guy every time either - not pursue the off-side shots because they were blind or partly so in their left eye. They take 2-6 misses instead of 8-12.
One I see a lot as off-side, which doesn’t HAVE to be, but sometimes is written as such, is rooftop. 2 shots standing from the left side, both feet on the ground, 4 shots from on top of the rooftop, nothing touching ground, 2 shots right side of rooftop, both feet on ground. I always shoot the right side with my left hand, as it gives me better recoil control than trying to back bend around the edge of the rooftop.
Some stages may be as simple as: prone, 6 shots right hand, mag change, 6 shots left hand, 3 targets at 730yrds, big to small 4 times. I prefer shooting left hand positional over prone, as there is more room to run the bolt off hand, and my support hand (right hand) is near the front of the rifle instead of tucked under me running the rear bag. Just more mobile to run the bolt.
There are some guys I have seen who will steer the rear bag with their offhand still, and pull the trigger with their right hand. It’s fast, since your bag hand stays put and you run the bolt with your proper side hand. I tried it in practice a bit, so it’s familiar if I had to, but I can shoot well left handed anyway, so those stages never bother me.
Biggest thing I would say a guy really needs to practice for off-side Shooting is their Cheekweld. Guys lose a lot of time trying to get into the scope, and you’ll notice them losing it in recoil and spending time again getting back in on every shot.
I’ve seen awful lot of malf with custom actions too.
There’s two basic problems. One is under pressure people get really jerky and don’t run them like they do at the bench.
Two is the shape (“geometry”) of the ejection port is critical and many $$$ actions aren’t cut right.
Factory actions are usually better in this respect because factory actions come in standard calibers that they can text extensively. But when you buy a bighorn or arc or something they don’t know if you’re going to put a 6br or a wssm in it. So setting it up where they eject large and small cases both fast and slow is legit challenging. Again some are better than others (*cough*impact*cough*)
I prob shouldn’t have said it’s never the ammo above. If someone runs too hot, or doesn’t trim enough or runs factory brass in a tight chamber with .001 clearance, it will require more muscle to run the bolt and it won't be as smooth and that jerking leads to malf. Easy to double feed etc.
There’s two basic problems. One is under pressure people get really jerky and don’t run them like they do at the bench.
Two is the shape (“geometry”) of the ejection port is critical and many $$$ actions aren’t cut right.
Factory actions are usually better in this respect because factory actions come in standard calibers that they can text extensively. But when you buy a bighorn or arc or something they don’t know if you’re going to put a 6br or a wssm in it. So setting it up where they eject large and small cases both fast and slow is legit challenging. Again some are better than others (*cough*impact*cough*)
I prob shouldn’t have said it’s never the ammo above. If someone runs too hot, or doesn’t trim enough or runs factory brass in a tight chamber with .001 clearance, it will require more muscle to run the bolt and it won't be as smooth and that jerking leads to malf. Easy to double feed etc.
here's sorta an example of what i'm talking about. https://www.facebook.com/450268428750447/posts/621599874950634/
dude posts a video with pretty sketchy advice and then to somehow prove his point, shows himself shooting a single 500 meter target (unknown size) in roughly 30 seconds with a malfunction after the first round. then miraculously at the end, declares that he was shooting so fast that he "had multiple rounds in the air before the first 'tings' came back from the target".
like, i get that his brain maybe accepted that as truth while he was in front of the camera because he was excited and wanted it to be so. but maybe he should have counted his tings while editing his video...
in any event, this sort of malf happens a LOT at matches
Nature Boy
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That's where paying attention to your ES in load development is important because shooting that fast you could have bullets running into each other in flight
Varminterror
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Sheesh... Really?
and that is why facebook is not a good source for anything except finding people you think that you are smarter than or keeping in touch with friends/family
his discussion of magnification is fine, but his after action analysis of his own performance is not great and he wasn't even shooting that fast.
his discussion of magnification is fine, but his after action analysis of his own performance is not great and he wasn't even shooting that fast.
I just need some sunny calm weather to shoot again. I have three factory loads now, the Fed Berger 108 that shot poorly, the Hornady 108 ELD that tried to shoot very well, definitely better than the Fed, and now some Hornady Black 105 HP stuff. I'm going to shoot them all side by side as soon as I get a chance. 1 group A, 1 group B, 1 group C, repeat. See what happens.
40 rounds through the barrel now, cleaned again and ready for the next test.
40 rounds through the barrel now, cleaned again and ready for the next test.
@Walkalong when you go to start reloading for it, swing by snipershide and look at the reloading depot, obviously you will need to work up your own load but the depot has a ton of loads folks have worked up already, it helps me feel more confident that my good load wasn’t a fluke day at the range when I am close in all aspects to good loads others have,
Some of those guys will hotrod their loads as well though
Some of those guys will hotrod their loads as well though
Varminterror
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Yes.
Nature Boy
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Well I piddled around too late. I registered with Practiscore a little bit ago and tried to register for the March 16th day shoot at Alabama Precision. It shows "registration is closed", even though the squadding shows some empty spots.
