Long range with 54 cal.

[tekie]

First i know 54 cal is not a 500 yard firearm, that being said at local range they have a group that does 50 cal or larger at 500 yards (just for fun and to do best at trying) must be purcusion cap or flint lock and iron sights. I would like to try this some mord but need some advise. So here is my question:

I am using a tompson center origanal 54 cal(from 1961) 28 inch octigonal barrel. I have the choice of real black powder FF or FFF i use .535 hornady round ball and .010 patch with bore butter(yes it is a tight fit lol), and i do have some that were home cast also(soft lead #3 hardness on bern scale) the owners manuel is showing FF safe loads of 48 grn - 155 grn and for FFF powder 45-150 grn. I have hit the targed with FFF at 110 grn but i am sure it was sheer luck as i cannot recreat it. Any suggestions as to what i can possably try to accomplish this goal? Any and all help and suggestions are welcome and thank you all ahead of time

 

[rdstrain49]

Instead of attempting to re-invent the wheel, why not take a trip to the "local range" when the guys are doing their 500 yd. thing. Find out first hand what works, saves time and money.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Sure...,
First, recover your patches and examine them very closely. Your Thompson Center is a 1:48 twist rate. It will, counter to some information that is based on manually rifled barrels, handle some hot loads, BUT going beyond 90 grains you are creating other factors.

(btw that load data was dropped a LOT lower in later manuals..., I wonder if your manual mentions double ball in a .45 caliber for deer? They did at one time) [ok back to the thread]

So with that large a ball, you have a thinner patch than you would with a .530..., and with that large a powder load, you're probably simply blowing some of it out the barrel, AND you might be burning through the thin patch.
So try a .530 ball and a thicker patch. and no more than 90 grains in 3Fg..., you want the faster burn.
Next, reduce it even further and perhaps try .520 round ball https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/1/BALL-520-X or https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/1/BALL-520 and chamois for the patch (local auto parts store; get real chamois). This will give you a lighter ball, with the faster powder, higher velocity. You could go even further and get a Lee .520 mold https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/1/LEE-520-6C, and cast wheel weight alloy bullets in .520. That would give you probably the lightest roundball that you could accurately shoot, and with the highest velocity. I wouldn't go to all that trouble though unless I had some increased success with the pre-made .520.

IF you want to exceed 90 grains with that PRB, you're probably looking at an aftermarket barrel in a slow-twist, say 1:66 or even 1:72, and longer too, say at least 36". That's a bit of cash to consider

See part your problem is the extreme range. The round ball sheds energy very fast. With average loads of 60-80 grains the .490 and the .530 ball get very close to similar velocity at as close as 100 yards.

So instead of getting an aftermarket, longer barrel, probably custom fit to your rifle..., you first may want to consider a conical bullet. Remember, the venerable .45-70 Government (black powder) round launched a 405 grain bullet using 70 grains of compressed black powder..., at almost 1400 fps, and that can reach out and "ding" a target at 500 yards. Sure..., probably using a flip up rear sight, some good elevation, and lobbing it in, but the conical shape made better ballistics than a round ball. Back in the day they got even bigger for really long range. The .50-90 Sharps was reported to have been used by Billy Dixon at The Second Battle of Adobe Walls on the 27th of June, 1874, to make a 1538 yard shot. So I'd try 70 grains of 3Fg, and try a 300 grain conical for the .54 in a REAL bullet https://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-54cal-300.html, and in a heavier, more traditional Minnie style https://leeprecision.com/mold-540-415-m.html, and I'd begin out to 100 yards, and the one with the better group I'd use to try and reach out to touch the target at 500 yards..., adjusting the powder upwards if I felt it was needed. Again, remember that the 405 grain, .458 bullet launched with 70 grains from a .45-70 trap-door Springfield would get there, so one of those two bullets from your .54 should be closer than with the round ball. The lighter REAL bullet is going to be moving faster, but it's stubby compared to the Minnie at 415 grains, and I don't know if the shorter bullet will destabilize on its way to the 500 yard line. You'll have to experiment and see.

LD

 

[J-Bar]

Loyalist Dave,

Thanks for the tutorial! Very interesting reading.

Taking your reasoning one step further, if a sabot were used, do you think a longer, smaller diameter bullet which would have a higher ballistic coefficient might be even more accurate than the full diameter minies?

 

[robhof]

Loyalist Dave,

Thanks for the tutorial! Very interesting reading.

Taking your reasoning one step further, if a sabot were used, do you think a longer, smaller diameter bullet which would have a higher ballistic coefficient might be even more accurate than the full diameter minies?

Saboted lighter, longer bullets work best with a faster twist 1/32 or 1/36, or even 1/26. I've got a 1/36 twist in a 24" Thompson custom barrel that I can group 4" at 200 yds on calm days.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Robhof is correct, AND..., you and your friends and co-shooters are shooting sidelock, traditional bullets, waaay out there, .... at some point you gotta draw a line, and not do anything further with more modern tech. I'd draw that line at adjustable peep sights, and paper patched bullets. Using a sabot, or a scope, in my mind for what you're doing would pretty much be too close to a modern cartridge ..., might as well get heavy barreled bolt-action in 6.5 Creedmoor and reach out to 1000 yards. But that's just me...,

I think you'll have better luck with either of those two conical bullets, and a tang rear sight in this style: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...2-winchester-1892-with-tang-safety-steel-blue plus a globe front sight https://www.midwayusa.com/product/153867/taylors-and-company-globe-front-sight-blue-3-8-dovetail. I think you'll have some good fun too. You'll have to figure out what will fit best on your tang behind the barrel. NOTE that the tang sight that I selected is just an example but it's made for 1892 Winchester lever-action rifles..., which then and now are made in "black powder" pistol calibers .44-40, .38-40, .32-20, .25-20 and repros for the Cowboy Action Shooting in .45 Colt, .44 Mag, etc. So they were/are pushing and still push pistol ammo from a rifle out pretty far.

Which means your load with a conical should be able to get there at 500 yards.

You might even consider hanging a AR500 steel "gong" out there at 500 yards. https://www.sportsmansguide.com/productlist?k=metal+target Dingin' steel is surprisingly fun, I bought a couple of plates for my teenager and his semi-auto carbine, and I found I had a lot more fun than I expected and so did he....and in your case you'll LOVE the time lag...BANG ..., 3..., 2..., 1..., DING!

LD

 

[J-Bar]

at some point you gotta draw a line, and not do anything further with more modern tech.

I understand. My question did not come from beating competition, but trying to stretch my TC Hawken's range a bit during deer season. I seem to see deer in open fields 150 to 200 yards away when my rifle is charged with a PRB. I don't like the idea of flinging a jacketed handgun bullet that far, but maybe with a sabot and a big ol' long slug I could fantasize about being a buffalo hunter....

 

[JeffG]

You might want to consider one of these, also.

 

[tekie]

Sure...,
First, recover your patches and examine them very closely. Your Thompson Center is a 1:48 twist rate. It will, counter to some information that is based on manually rifled barrels, handle some hot loads, BUT going beyond 90 grains you are creating other factors.

(btw that load data was dropped a LOT lower in later manuals..., I wonder if your manual mentions double ball in a .45 caliber for deer? They did at one time) [ok back to the thread]

So with that large a ball, you have a thinner patch than you would with a .530..., and with that large a powder load, you're probably simply blowing some of it out the barrel, AND you might be burning through the thin patch.
So try a .530 ball and a thicker patch. and no more than 90 grains in 3Fg..., you want the faster burn.
Next, reduce it even further and perhaps try .520 round ball https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/1/BALL-520-X or https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/1/BALL-520 and chamois for the patch (local auto parts store; get real chamois). This will give you a lighter ball, with the faster powder, higher velocity. You could go even further and get a Lee .520 mold https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/1/LEE-520-6C, and cast wheel weight alloy bullets in .520. That would give you probably the lightest roundball that you could accurately shoot, and with the highest velocity. I wouldn't go to all that trouble though unless I had some increased success with the pre-made .520.

IF you want to exceed 90 grains with that PRB, you're probably looking at an aftermarket barrel in a slow-twist, say 1:66 or even 1:72, and longer too, say at least 36". That's a bit of cash to consider

See part your problem is the extreme range. The round ball sheds energy very fast. With average loads of 60-80 grains the .490 and the .530 ball get very close to similar velocity at as close as 100 yards.

So instead of getting an aftermarket, longer barrel, probably custom fit to your rifle..., you first may want to consider a conical bullet. Remember, the venerable .45-70 Government (black powder) round launched a 405 grain bullet using 70 grains of compressed black powder..., at almost 1400 fps, and that can reach out and "ding" a target at 500 yards. Sure..., probably using a flip up rear sight, some good elevation, and lobbing it in, but the conical shape made better ballistics than a round ball. Back in the day they got even bigger for really long range. The .50-90 Sharps was reported to have been used by Billy Dixon at The Second Battle of Adobe Walls on the 27th of June, 1874, to make a 1538 yard shot. So I'd try 70 grains of 3Fg, and try a 300 grain conical for the .54 in a REAL bullet https://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-54cal-300.html, and in a heavier, more traditional Minnie style https://leeprecision.com/mold-540-415-m.html, and I'd begin out to 100 yards, and the one with the better group I'd use to try and reach out to touch the target at 500 yards..., adjusting the powder upwards if I felt it was needed. Again, remember that the 405 grain, .458 bullet launched with 70 grains from a .45-70 trap-door Springfield would get there, so one of those two bullets from your .54 should be closer than with the round ball. The lighter REAL bullet is going to be moving faster, but it's stubby compared to the Minnie at 415 grains, and I don't know if the shorter bullet will destabilize on its way to the 500 yard line. You'll have to experiment and see.

LD

Yes my manual does show the double ball for deer. I do have some of the conical rounds(and that exact mold you mention) it never crossed my mind. I will adjust the powder charge some as you mentioned. I also have some .520 & .510 round balls also. Thank you you have given me a lot to think about and work with. I was unaware that in later printings of the manual they changed the powder charges

 

[tekie]

Instead of attempting to re-invent the wheel, why not take a trip to the "local range" when the guys are doing their 500 yd. thing. Find out first hand what works, saves time and money.

I have talked to the guys in the group, most of wich chose a 67 cal (not sure why unless there is something specific to there rifles that account for distance). It is nice to know that i am not the only one to consider this as i have been told in the past(and at different range ware i used to live) that asking such questions is cheating

 

[tekie]

Robhof is correct, AND..., you and your friends and co-shooters are shooting sidelock, traditional bullets, waaay out there, .... at some point you gotta draw a line, and not do anything further with more modern tech. I'd draw that line at adjustable peep sights, and paper patched bullets. Using a sabot, or a scope, in my mind for what you're doing would pretty much be too close to a modern cartridge ..., might as well get heavy barreled bolt-action in 6.5 Creedmoor and reach out to 1000 yards. But that's just me...,

I think you'll have better luck with either of those two conical bullets, and a tang rear sight in this style: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...2-winchester-1892-with-tang-safety-steel-blue plus a globe front sight https://www.midwayusa.com/product/153867/taylors-and-company-globe-front-sight-blue-3-8-dovetail. I think you'll have some good fun too. You'll have to figure out what will fit best on your tang behind the barrel. NOTE that the tang sight that I selected is just an example but it's made for 1892 Winchester lever-action rifles..., which then and now are made in "black powder" pistol calibers .44-40, .38-40, .32-20, .25-20 and repros for the Cowboy Action Shooting in .45 Colt, .44 Mag, etc. So they were/are pushing and still push pistol ammo from a rifle out pretty far.

Which means your load with a conical should be able to get there at 500 yards.

You might even consider hanging a AR500 steel "gong" out there at 500 yards. https://www.sportsmansguide.com/productlist?k=metal+target Dingin' steel is surprisingly fun, I bought a couple of plates for my teenager and his semi-auto carbine, and I found I had a lot more fun than I expected and so did he....and in your case you'll LOVE the time lag...BANG ..., 3..., 2..., 1..., DING!

LD

You might want to consider one of these, also.
View attachment 780956

I do have a adjustable elevation site similar to the one pictured(only a lot shorter about half of the height) i have not had much luck working with it(but again at old range ware max distance was 100 hards so that may be part of it) i will try getting it out again and get it adjusted in. I agree with not using too much modern tech as that does defeat the purpose of the type of shoot.

If i could use 45 cal rifle i would be set as it is designed for longer ranges, but personally even if it was allowed it would be cheating as it is a much more modern design and made around long distancces lol

 

[tekie]

Robhof is correct, AND..., you and your friends and co-shooters are shooting sidelock, traditional bullets, waaay out there, .... at some point you gotta draw a line, and not do anything further with more modern tech. I'd draw that line at adjustable peep sights, and paper patched bullets. Using a sabot, or a scope, in my mind for what you're doing would pretty much be too close to a modern cartridge ..., might as well get heavy barreled bolt-action in 6.5 Creedmoor and reach out to 1000 yards. But that's just me...,

I think you'll have better luck with either of those two conical bullets, and a tang rear sight in this style: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...2-winchester-1892-with-tang-safety-steel-blue plus a globe front sight https://www.midwayusa.com/product/153867/taylors-and-company-globe-front-sight-blue-3-8-dovetail. I think you'll have some good fun too. You'll have to figure out what will fit best on your tang behind the barrel. NOTE that the tang sight that I selected is just an example but it's made for 1892 Winchester lever-action rifles..., which then and now are made in "black powder" pistol calibers .44-40, .38-40, .32-20, .25-20 and repros for the Cowboy Action Shooting in .45 Colt, .44 Mag, etc. So they were/are pushing and still push pistol ammo from a rifle out pretty far.

Which means your load with a conical should be able to get there at 500 yards.

You might even consider hanging a AR500 steel "gong" out there at 500 yards. https://www.sportsmansguide.com/productlist?k=metal+target Dingin' steel is surprisingly fun, I bought a couple of plates for my teenager and his semi-auto carbine, and I found I had a lot more fun than I expected and so did he....and in your case you'll LOVE the time lag...BANG ..., 3..., 2..., 1..., DING!

LD

You might want to consider one of these, also.
View attachment 780956

I do have a adjustable elevation site similar to the one pictured(only a lot shorter about half of the height) i have not had much luck working with it(but again at old range ware max distance was 100 hards so that may be part of it) i will try getting it out again and get it adjusted in. I agree with not using too much modern tech as that does defeat the purpose of the type of shoot.

If i could use 45 cal rifle i would be set as it is designed for longer ranges, but personally even if it was allowed it would be cheating as it is a much more modern design and made around long distancces lol

 

[Bigmike79]

The secret to accuracy in any BP rifle for me has always been "less is more."

70-80 grains of powder has always been more accurate in my 54 cal than with bigger charges. 54 is a big hole. It doesn't need to move very fast to kill a big animal, and paper doesn't seem to care how hard the ball hits.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I was unaware that in later printings of the manual they changed the powder charges

Oh YEAH you can see that they themselves didn't understand round ball hunting when they first got started. No need to use a double ball when shooting a .440 PRB and 60 grains or more of 3Fg at a whitetail.
Here's a TC Hawken manual, that I think was published in 2009 for folks still uisng TC traditional rifles like the Hawken https://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/manuals/Hawken_Manual.pdf Note how all of the loads are 2Fg. Also note that from 60 - 70 grains they show more than 200 fps increase, and from 70 - 80 grains just under 200 fps increase, but from 80 -90 grains it's just over 100 fps increase. They are diminishing returns when you go with a heavy charge in a lot of cases.

You can also note when using conicals, they mention different weights with the different designs, but the same loads and velocities....,

LD

 

[tekie]

Thank you i downloaded the manual and will go threw it. It is very interesting the changes that you mention!

Oh YEAH you can see that they themselves didn't understand round ball hunting when they first got started. No need to use a double ball when shooting a .440 PRB and 60 grains or more of 3Fg at a whitetail.
Here's a TC Hawken manual, that I think was published in 2009 for folks still uisng TC traditional rifles like the Hawken https://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/manuals/Hawken_Manual.pdf Note how all of the loads are 2Fg. Also note that from 60 - 70 grains they show more than 200 fps increase, and from 70 - 80 grains just under 200 fps increase, but from 80 -90 grains it's just over 100 fps increase. They are diminishing returns when you go with a heavy charge in a lot of cases.

You can also note when using conicals, they mention different weights with the different designs, but the same loads and velocities....,

LD