Looking for a recommendation regarding armed church security

[TomJ]

I attend a good size church in the Chicago suburbs and am one of the volunteers who works armed security. There is one armed person at each service, as well as one unarmed person. We'd like to have additional security, but are limited by the number of qualified members available. Services are held in an auditorium type room. We've been sitting towards the front of the room and face forward, and I'm thinking that those of us who are armed should sit in the back so we can see the entire auditorium. Is there any advantage I'm not thinking of to staying in the front? We had discussed sitting in the front while facing the congregation, but based on the layout that would too obvious and a distraction.

 

[Armored farmer]

We have people at the doors. I am at the street side door. Nothing between me and the side door.
We also lock all the doors when the service begins.
Recently we installed security lights around the perimeter.

Unfortunately there was yet another church shooting today in Texas. It was ended by a church member with his ccw, but not before three were killed.

Always carry.

 

[IlikeSA]

You definitely want to be in the back near the doors, preferably against the wall. This gives you the the advantage of observing everyone coming in and buys you a bit of decision making time within the OODA loop, as anyone entering has to go through the full OODA loop in reaction to you, and there are multiple distractions for them.

I don't see any benefit for being in the front facing away from the doors and the majority of the congregation.

Have y'all set up a good EOP?

 

[labnoti]

Is armed response the only responsibility the armed members of the security team have? Is there someone else designated to respond to medical emergencies, and accidents? What do you do during transition periods such as when people are arriving or departing before or after a service? What about parking lot security?

Just with respect to armed response to lethal threats, since that's all that you implied by your question, what sort of risks have you identified? Are you concerned with someone targeting the preacher at the podium, or just mass killers randomly selecting victims from the center of mass? What are your evacuation routes for the speaker(s)? and for the people in the auditorium? Have you considered secondary attacks, that is, an attack on the people evacuating?

 

[labnoti]

Can someone drive a vehicle into the church to initiate an attack? Because they can mine. They could drive right through big glass doors and one flimsy interior gypsum wall and their pickup truck would be in the middle of the sanctuary/auditorium. We need bollards. Things like that shouldn't be overlooked because of a focus on shooters.

If a person can't drive into the church building, could they set off firecrackers inside to cause an evacuation to the parking lot where they stage a bigger ANFO car bomb? Can you plan to evacuate somewhere away from the cars and avoid a large mass of people close together?

If you are mostly concerned about a shooter, don't assume they will walk straight into your defenses. They could just pull a fire alarm and ambush the people as they come out. Your plan might have you the last one to leave, ensuring everyone gets out.

 

[TomJ]

Is armed response the only responsibility the armed members of the security team have? Is there someone else designated to respond to medical emergencies, and accidents? What do you do during transition periods such as when people are arriving or departing before or after a service? What about parking lot security?

Just with respect to armed response to lethal threats, since that's all that you implied by your question, what sort of risks have you identified? Are you concerned with someone targeting the preacher at the podium, or just mass killers randomly selecting victims from the center of mass? What are your evacuation routes for the speaker(s)? and for the people in the auditorium? Have you considered secondary attacks, that is, an attack on the people evacuating?

Armed response is the only responsibility those of us who are armed have. We have others who will handle non-violent threats or concerns as well as medical staff to handle those emergencies. With there only being one of us armed per service we're limited as to what we can do. We do take a walk around the parking lot before the service but otherwise our focus is on the auditorium. We have other staff throughout the facility with radios in case we're needed elsewhere.

The main threats we've experienced is mentally ill people attending services, but none so far have been violent. We had one chuch member who was stalking a women who was also a member, and when he was asked to find another church he showed up a couple of times, giving staff a hard time. Fortunately we haven't heard from him in a few months. In regards to specific threats, we're there to address any of those you mentioned, and I'm not aware of any specific threats against our church or pastor.

There are multiple evacuation routes with a security person assigned to the pastor and in the event of something someone is assigned to give direction to the congregation. We have considered secondary attacks, which makes having only one armed person a concern, but we don't want to add unqualified bodies.

 

[TikkaShooter]

One wants to be where they have the best coverage possible.

The movie "We were soldiers" covers it accurately; when Hal Moore asked himself what would I do; then, moved his assets..

 

[ms6852]

I would reconsider have locked doors once services begin. If there is going to be an active shooter scenario more than likely that person is already seating in the congregation . Locking the doors will bunch everyone like cattle at the exits and than it is like shooting fish in a barrel. Sorry for the puns. This is a good example of having people by the exits or standing next to them with your back to the wall. Focusing your attention to the congregation. I would like to point out that those of you that carry a handgun that you begin immediate training in shooting further than 25 yards. Wouldn't hurt you to practice shooting at 25,50,75, and 100 yards. I do this all the time with my 1911's and revolvers because the church I attend is that large and distance along with the chaos will be a huge obstacle.

 

[TomJ]

Can someone drive a vehicle into the church to initiate an attack? Because they can mine. They could drive right through big glass doors and one flimsy interior gypsum wall and their pickup truck would be in the middle of the sanctuary/auditorium. We need bollards. Things like that shouldn't be overlooked because of a focus on shooters.

If a person can't drive into the church building, could they set off firecrackers inside to cause an evacuation to the parking lot where they stage a bigger ANFO car bomb? Can you plan to evacuate somewhere away from the cars and avoid a large mass of people close together?

If you are mostly concerned about a shooter, don't assume they will walk straight into your defenses. They could just pull a fire alarm and ambush the people as they come out. Your plan might have you the last one to leave, ensuring everyone gets out.

They can drive into part of the building, but not the main auditorium. We lease the building so making changes to it is not possible. You're other points give us good things to think about. We have attended training specific for church security conducted by former secret service and FBI agents, and they covered quite a few scenarios we've discussed and planned for.

 

[<*(((><]

It seems prudent to have a roving security guard that can tail/keep an eye on a suspicious person. Given the video I just saw of the Texas church shooting the shooter was wearing a trench coat and hood, not normal attire for church attending, at least not at my church. Seems like security could call over the radios to have an armed security keep eyes on a suspicious character at least for a while to determine intentions before breaking contact.

But to answer more to your question, preferably one would want security guards with vantage points that can effectively cover pieces of the pie so to speak. For instance sitting to the immediate right of an entrance is a great option as most shooters coming through the door will tend to head left.

 

[TomJ]

I would reconsider have locked doors once services begin. If there is going to be an active shooter scenario more than likely that person is already seating in the congregation . Locking the doors will bunch everyone like cattle at the exits and than it is like shooting fish in a barrel. Sorry for the puns. This is a good example of having people by the exits or standing next to them with your back to the wall. Focusing your attention to the congregation. I would like to point out that those of you that carry a handgun that you begin immediate training in shooting further than 25 yards. Wouldn't hurt you to practice shooting at 25,50,75, and 100 yards. I do this all the time with my 1911's and revolvers because the church I attend is that large and distance along with the chaos will be a huge obstacle.

Locking the doors is not an option. Our stance is that we're first and foremost a church with the goal of ministering to people. It's common for people to show up late and we don't want to turn them away. It's a balancing act between ministering to people and keeping the congregation safe. I do practice shooting 25+ yards out with my handguns for this reason.

 

[JohnKSa]

It was ended by a church member with his ccw, but not before three were killed.

Two killed (including the shooter), one in critical condition. <<Edited. The second victim is reported to have died at the hospital since I initially made this post.>> The church member (reported to be retired FBI) does not appear to have used a concealed weapon. He was standing in the back of the church, appears to have been wearing a uniform and was carrying a good bit of equipment on his belt as a security guard might. He appears to have drawn from open carry.

We've been sitting towards the front of the room and face forward, and I'm thinking that those of us who are armed should sit in the back so we can see the entire auditorium. Is there any advantage I'm not thinking of to staying in the front? We had discussed sitting in the front while facing the congregation, but based on the layout that would too obvious and a distraction.

You need to be sitting so that you can see the entry points easily without having to reposition or turn around. You need to be close enough to entry points that you can rapidly and effectively engage persons coming into the entry points.

This is very cold-blooded and purely pragmatic, but if you only have one person armed in a service, I would NOT put that person at the door as a greeter/guard. That person is the most likely person in the room to be blindsided and shot. That would eliminate the only armed resistance. Someone else needs to be the greeter so that the armed person has a better chance of not being the first person shot. It's not pleasant to consider, but if that person is the best chance for stopping a shooting, they need to be alive to do it and you don't want them to be easily taken out with the first shot.

Ideally the armed person should be situated in a position and carrying in a manner that allows a surreptitious draw. You don't want them to have to draw attention to themselves in the process of engaging the shooter. In the White Settlement shooting, the shooter was initially engaged by a ccw holder who stood up and drew. The person appears to have been carrying behind the back and may have felt that it was necessary to stand to draw. Whatever the reason, the result was a slower than necessary draw and one that was very obvious to the shooter. The shooter shot the man before he could complete the draw and fire a shot.

 

[labnoti]

....You're other points give us good things to think about. We have attended training specific for church security conducted by former secret service and FBI agents, and they covered quite a few scenarios we've discussed and planned for.

The only point of my questions was to elicit an idea about how much this has been thought through. Because the way you presented your question in the original post was kind of like, "I got my gun. Should I sit in the front or the back?" In fact, you do seem to be aware that it is indeed a lot more complicated than that. My other points just scratched the surface. I am not an authority on the subject, so I will leave it at that. I do pray for you the best.

 

[jstert]

locking doors could be a fire code violation as well as channeling victims into a trampling stampede killing zone. why not have an usher, armed or not, on door duty throughout the service to meet/greet entrants and assist/screen newcomers? armed security should be unobtrusively seated in rear corners.

 

[labnoti]

.... I would like to point out that those of you that carry a handgun that you begin immediate training in shooting further than 25 yards. Wouldn't hurt you to practice shooting at 25,50,75, and 100 yards. I do this all the time with my 1911's and revolvers because the church I attend is that large and distance along with the chaos will be a huge obstacle.

I thought it would make sense for dedicated armed responders to have a shoulder-braced firearm readily available. Concealed handguns make the most sense for people that aren't part of the security team (or whatever term is used for people designated by the church to be prepared for an armed response), and the security team should certainly have them, but for those that are in cooperation with the church to provide security, it seems to make sense to have some carbines or PDW's available in quick-access hard cases -- for example, one in the sound booth, and at other strategic locations where they are accompanied by a team member (perhaps to the sides of the platform, and from where the doors can be watched). A security person near the threat would probably respond with a handgun because it is quicker to access. But if someone were to be clear across a large auditorium, the extra time to retrieve a carbine with an EO Tech and suppressor from a quick box before they engage the distant threat seems well worth it. We could debate the overpenetration issue, but it's really no different than it would be for law enforcement that similarly works in crowded environments and besides, some PDW's are just pistol-cartridges with barrels no longer than a handgun, but they have that shoulder brace and rail for a large optic, and can easily accommodate a suppressor without making them awkward.

This isn't my advice or recommendation to the OP. With only one person, it doesn't add much value since with only one, it will probably be in the wrong place and need to be secured (and less accessible) when unattended. Maybe a person could have the smallest PDW in a backpack, messenger bag or satchel, but they'd have to remember to keep it with them. It's probably more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

All church layouts are obviously going to be different. The only one I can speak to is the one I grew up going to.

All doors were unlocked and we did have front doors on either side of the sanctuary. We also had a "control room" for lights, sound and projection in the back and over top of the sanctuary.

I would think armed plainclothes at either of the front side entrances not with their backs to the doors but standing to the side of said unlocked doors. One person in the overhead control room with a carbine or at least SBR and an armed plainclothes person at every other entry point within the building.

These folks would need to be trained more than the average range rat. Medical personnel onsite would also be necessary.

Theres only so much you can do without looking like a military compound. After all a church is supposed to be welcoming.


Shame that it has come to this. Growing up going to the above mentioned church this wasn't even a thought, not only to the kids like me but also to the rest of the congregation as we had zero "security".

 

[huntsman]

Our church is held in a gym and we have men positioned along the back wall near doors, we also discussed adding men in the front facing congregation. Also have a man positioned in entry way within line of sight of the two doors that are open.

If you watch the church shooting video you’ll note security was stationed near shooter so they must’ve been suspicious of him, reacting quickly probably limited damage and about the best they could’ve hoped for.

 

[ms6852]

I thought it would make sense for dedicated armed responders to have a shoulder-braced firearm readily available. Concealed handguns make the most sense for people that aren't part of the security team (or whatever term is used for people designated by the church to be prepared for an armed response), and the security team should certainly have them, but for those that are in cooperation with the church to provide security, it seems to make sense to have some carbines or PDW's available in quick-access hard cases -- for example, one in the sound booth, and at other strategic locations where they are accompanied by a team member (perhaps to the sides of the platform, and from where the doors can be watched). A security person near the threat would probably respond with a handgun because it is quicker to access. But if someone were to be clear across a large auditorium, the extra time to retrieve a carbine with an EO Tech and suppressor from a quick box before they engage the distant threat seems well worth it. We could debate the overpenetration issue, but it's really no different than it would be for law enforcement that similarly works in crowded environments and besides, some PDW's are just pistol-cartridges with barrels no longer than a handgun, but they have that shoulder brace and rail for a large optic, and can easily accommodate a suppressor without making them awkward.

This isn't my advice or recommendation to the OP. With only one person, it doesn't add much value since with only one, it will probably be in the wrong place and need to be secured (and less accessible) when unattended. Maybe a person could have the smallest PDW in a backpack, messenger bag or satchel, but they'd have to remember to keep it with them. It's probably more trouble than it's worth.

If I were security I definitely would have an SBR under my coat. Preferably the Sig in 9mm. It is sad that the times have caused a paradigm shift and we have to arm ourselves more for worship as we do for hunting.

 

[Mike J]

I was on a security team at the church we recently left for unrelated reasons. I always tried to stay towards the back where I could see the doors. Their plan was that the ushers handled the doors, did the greeting, checked on the kids, etc. They just wanted to have two discreetly armed individuals in every service. The team members were each scheduled for one Sunday a month but once I was recruited I carried any time I was there. That was really all the direction I ever received. Did I believe the plan was fool proof, provided for every possible scenario & was guaranteed to keep everyone safe? No. Do I think it was better than a whole congregation being unarmed sitting there like fish in a barrel? Yes. It is good that y'all have gotten training & you are thinking about things & asking questions. Yes, there were people on other teams for medical emergencies, dealing with spiritual emergencies, etc. I always felt like security wasn't taken seriously enough in all honesty.

 

[bearcreek]

We have attended training specific for church security conducted by former secret service and FBI agents, and they covered quite a few scenarios we've discussed and planned for.

I'm surprised they didn't cover the question you're asking here. I'd recommend contacting them for clarification.

 

[TomJ]

I'm surprised they didn't cover the question you're asking here. I'd recommend contacting them for clarification.

Their suggestion was to sit in the front and face the congregation. We’re trying to be more subtle as we want the focus to be on the message being taught, not on us.

 

[bearcreek]

Their suggestion was to sit in the front and face the congregation. We’re trying to be more subtle as we want the focus to be on the message being taught, not on us.

Understandable. Would it be possible to side on the sides against the wall, midway up the auditorium, facing in?

 

[TomJ]

Understandable. Would it be possible to side on the sides against the wall, midway up the auditorium, facing in?

Unfortunately no. The seats are bolted to the floor and have permanent arm rests and only face forward. There’s no way to sit facing sideways in them. We can use folding chairs but we’d be partially blocking the aisle along the wall, which isn’t that wide.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

We have attended training specific for church security conducted by former secret service and FBI agents, and they covered quite a few scenarios we've discussed and planned for.

You might want to contact New Life Church in Colorado Springs. I don't know if they still do it but they used to have a Ministry that did training specific for church security taught by people who did church security.

And of course we all know how well their plan worked out.

There are also a couple of consulting firms and insurance companies that specialize in church security and they do seminars to pass on Lessons Learned.

 

[ms6852]

Unfortunately no. The seats are bolted to the floor and have permanent arm rests and only face forward. There’s no way to sit facing sideways in them. We can use folding chairs but we’d be partially blocking the aisle along the wall, which isn’t that wide.

Not trying to be coy but what difference does it make that you are "partially blocking" the hall when the doors are locked? One thing I've learned in my life time is that if one has committed himself or herself to kill and die, no one can be protected for certain, not even potus, and he has an army. But what can be done is minimize the carnage.