looking for thoughts on concealed carry

[fingerbanger]

Some friends of mine from Israel were discussing carrying a firearm. they don't feel the need to, under the assumption that most people aren't properly trained and therefor should not be permitted to. according to them everyone in Israel is required to serve in the army and has been properly trained. recently i was carrying my new Sig and when they asked me to see it. i showed them. i took it out, extracted the magazine, and pulled back the slide, the chambered round popped out and the weapon was empty. i then handed it to them. now we got into a huge debate on why i had a round chambered and how unsafe it is. its a p229 da/sa and i felt it was very safe to carry with one in the pipe. he then showed me that they are trained to pull the gun out of the holster and as your extending your strong arm you grasp the slide with your weak hand, as it passes you let the slide go and now a round is chambered. now the weak hand assists the strong in a standard two hand firing position. he did this very fluid and fast. he argued that this was just as fast and much more safe. i had admit that he may have a point underneath that condescending tone. i felt bad because they looked me as if i was unsafe in my actions. it has been weighing heavy on my mind all day, and i would like other peoples opinions on this.

 

[springmom]

There have been many, many threads on this topic. A search will yield hours of reading for you.

Springmom

 

[strat81]

according to them everyone in Israel is required to serve in the army and has been properly trained.

That's right soldiers have never negligently killed a fellow soldier or friendly civilian. Neither have the police.

i felt it was very safe to carry with one in the pipe.

It is, assuming the gun is in a proper state of repair and you KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER.

he then showed me that they are trained to pull the gun out of the holster and as your extending your strong arm you grasp the slide with your weak hand, as it passes you let the slide go and now a round is chambered. now the weak hand assists the strong in a standard two hand firing position. he did this very fluid and fast. he argued that this was just as fast and much more safe.

You're in the middle of the street and there are no tables or door frames available. How do you quickly and safely chamber a round with only one hand? Lets say your other hand is fighting off the attacker, stabbed, broken, or otherwise unavailable. I've heard of the belt trick but I'm not crazy about having the muzzle of my weapon that close to my body while in a hostile situation.

Modern weapons are extremely safe when carrying one in the chamber.

 

[XavierBreath]

1. Why would your friends from Israel know you carry a gun? Concealed means concealed.

2. Why would you show them your gun? See above.

3. A Sig P229 was designed to carry a round safely in the chamber. Your friend is wrong.

Carrying safely means carrying in such a way that you can effectively preserve your life without endangering the lives of innocent people. Your friend makes the assumption that when he is attacked, he will have both hands free to do with whatever he wishes. That is often not the case. Quick question for him.....How quickly and accurately can he get shots on target with his Israeli draw? When he is still racking the slide, a round in the chamber allows a person of equal skill to be putting holes in the target. Timers do not lie. What will save your life is willingness, speed and accuracy. You carry a gun to save your life. Carry it in the most effective way possible to accomplish that task.

Military or police training does not mean one knows how to safely and effectively carry or handle firearms. Your friend has demonstrated that.

 

[Albatross]

Their (your friends) opinion is in the extreme minority.

The vast majority think that you're pretty foolish not to carry your gun loaded if you intend to use it in self defense.

 

[Pat-inCO]

I really dislike posts that say "I've heard that ...." but here goes anyway.

What I've read says that Israel trains the general populace to carry in mode 3. What they were explaining is how to be most effective with mode 3. At least it sounds consistent.

When you have a gun with a de-cocker that allows you to carry with the hammer down (often DA/SA) then to carry with one in the chamber is no more unsafe, and is considerably faster than mode 3.

Were it me, I would consider their "advise" to be the result of their training and not let it bother me.

 

[entropy]

Israeli soldiers are trained to carry a weapon (except during ops) with the chamber empty. That's where all those Orolite mags with the holders came from. This probably comes from when the majority of Israelis not in uniform carried Uzis, which fire from an open bolt, and thus are best carried with the bolt closed on an empty chamber.

 

[Serial Fan]

How fast would your friend be if his weak hand were disabled?

 

[Standing Wolf]

they don't feel the need to, under the assumption that most people aren't properly trained and therefor should not be permitted to.

Rights don't require training. It's not up to government to "permit" people to save their lives. If people choose not to defend their lives, that's their prerogative, not government's.

 

[Winchester 73]

Rights don't require training. It's not up to government to "permit" people to save their lives. If people choose not to defend their lives, that's their prerogative, not government's

Can't be said any better.

 

[jrfoxx]

I wouldnt worry about it.The way you carry your gun is perfectly safe.If they are trained/required/inclined to do it differently, they are free to have a ball.You also, are free to carry in the mode you feel is fasted, best, and safe, and IMHO, what you are doing is certaing all of those.I carry a cocked and locked 1911 around regularly, and havent had even the slightest hint of it being in any way unsafe, and IMHO, its the best way to carry, so thats what I dthers may have thier own opinion, and thats fine, as I have my own as well.

 

[Tribal]

A helpful experiment, if you've got the resources, is to take a pistol with either an empty chamber or a snap cap (especially if the gun is hammerless), cock the hammer, apply the safety, and leave it to sit. Maybe even carry it around with you, if you'd like. See if the hammer ever accidentally drops. I've tried this with a Beretta 92, a USPc, a 1911, a P-3AT, and a Kahr PM9 and I've never had a "simulated accidental (or negligent) discharge."

 

[Aguila Blanca]

now we got into a huge debate on why i had a round chambered and how unsafe it is. its a p229 da/sa and i felt it was very safe to carry with one in the pipe. he then showed me that they are trained to pull the gun out of the holster and as your extending your strong arm you grasp the slide with your weak hand, as it passes you let the slide go and now a round is chambered. now the weak hand assists the strong in a standard two hand firing position. he did this very fluid and fast. he argued that this was just as fast and much more safe.

The "Israeli draw."

It is not faster. In the hands of an IDF operative, who has trained in that technique for years, it may be ALMOST as fast as just drawing a DA and firing, or drawing a 1911 and sweeping off the thumb safety as you draw, but faster? I think not. Obviously, it is safer ... unless you fumble the slide while executing the maneuver, pulling the muzzle off-line so that you're not aiming at the intended target when you pull the trigger.

The Israelis teach this technique because they used to have a variety of different makes and models of handguns, some with and some without manual safeties. And some operatives would switch back and forth from one platform to another. Since muscle memory takes over in times of stress, they decided to use a single technique that is applicable to all the handguns they might encounter. That way, there's no need to remember what gun you're carrying today.

Don't know if it's correct, but I read only recently that they have now abandoned the technique. If it's true, I guess your friend didn't get the memo ...

 

[damien]

Without going into details, you can always hide behind the fact that cops and soldiers carry this way also.

 

[Cosmoline]

now we got into a huge debate on why i had a round chambered and how unsafe it is.

Not surprising. Have you ever heard of the Israeli Presentation? They are trained to cycle the semi WHEN THEY DRAW IT and pretty much ignore the safety altogether. Going cocked and locked, or even having a round in a DA/SA pistol is seen as something only crazy Americans do.

 

[bogie]

Safeties are not safe.