M&P 15/22’S problems at Appleseed(s)

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stoky

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EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED.

The AOC has received a rash of reports regarding safety issues with the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22, including a shooter getting injured as a result of an out-of-battery discharge (see reports below).

As responsible Instructors, we have a duty to maintain safety at our events. If we know a rifle to be potentially unsafe, we shouldn’t allow it on the line at all.

At this time the least risk course of action would be to exclude the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22 from future events until Smith & Wesson formally investigates the problem and issues an official corrective action.

REPORTS TO BE AWARE OF:

Bowie, MD: A shooter (RHS) firing a M&P 15/22 with Remington 22 Thunderbolt Ammo had an out of battery discharge. A Metal Fragment hit the arm of a shooter next to her (LHS) in her right arm. She, did not realize that she had been hit with fragments at first and continued to fire until blood begin to pool (time est. 11:10am) feeling only a warm sting. Instructors rendered first aid applying a compression type bandage to stop the bleeding. Shoot boss suggested that she go to local hospital or emergency clinic. She was able to drive herself to the hospital. They took x-rays of the area and found a fragment deep in her arm. Hospital suggested that she see an Orthopedic surgeon or her Doctor on Monday to have the object removed but surgery should not be required.

Casper, WY: This past weekend we had a student show up with a 15/22. She had been using it pretty regular, since she had also attended our recent boot camp. After about 8 sets of squares, she began to notice the malfunction. Upon careful observation, it was noticed that as she reset the sear the rifle would discharge. We called cease fire and immediately removed this rifle from the line, and replaced it with a loaner.

Once off line, it was field stripped and upon inspection, found that not only was it firing at reset, but also when the safety was engaged. Further inspection found that the trigger pin and the hammer pin were both loose. They both had moved about 1/16th of an inch to the right. Just enough to be loose on the left side of the receiver. The pins were gently hammered back in and function checks performed. After about 3 sets, the hammer pin slid out again.

The rifle was reassembled and tagged out, student was told that 1) the rifle needed to be seen by her gunsmith; or 2) (my recommendation) sent back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement.

Michigan Senior Instructor: The SI wanted to shoot an AQT with his 15/22, but he needed to verify the zero. Another instructor volunteered to take the rifle over to another range, put it on a bench, and confirm zero. While shooting the first string, after pulling the trigger, the extractor shot out the ejection port along with the case and the extractor spring. The case was retrieved and it was observed to be split down the side, indicating that the rifle fired out of battery. Fortunately, the instructor was alone on the range, and no one was injured. The rifle was sent back to S&W, and it was repaired and returned. A copy of one page of the manual was enclosed, highlighting the need to keep the rifle clean and only use certain types of ammunition, insinuating that the problem was operator error, not a design flaw. The Senior Instructor sold the rifle shortly thereafter.

Michigan Instructor: "Back before I was more familiar with this model, we had a malfunction of the Extractor during an event – it simply fell apart during a course of fire. I took it to Williams and they said it needed to go back to S&W. To save time I just bought a new extractor, springs and dowel pins and replaced them myself. Tested it and it worked fine, that’s until it malfunctioned again after several hundred rounds down range.

As the old saying goes “two is one and one is none” – I had purchased several extractors, springs and dowel pins – replaced it a second time and it worked fine all up until I had a “Run-Away…” Luckily I had the muzzle pointed down range as it spit out the balance of 30 rounds down range without the need to have a finger on the trigger….
I contacted S&W and they sent me a repair tag and shipped it back to them. Upon its return I noticed that they replaced the hammer, sear and all the springs were replaced with “Blue” springs. The rifle performed well the after that but I never brought it back to an Appleseed. It now sits in the vault as an expensive club."

Montpelier, VA: I've witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22's twice but never from a 10/22
 
It would be nice if you'd post links to the source of such articles.

A quick google search turned up these results that might help you.............

From what I can tell, it was an internal memorandum Appleseed sent out to it's instructors and was not a public press release. Which, IMHO, was the correct way to address the issue. Then it 'leaked' into the mainstream gun media. I don't doubt its authenticity.

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/0...appleseed-events-battery-run-away-discharges/

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/09/john-boch/appleseed-bans-sw-mp-1522s/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...appleseed-events-due-run-away-battery-firing/

https://www.facebook.com/FloridaAppleseed






.
 
IMO, in the light of some of S&Ws historically dubious marketeering, particularly with regard to private civilian ownership, this was something that needed leaking, far and wide. :cuss:
 
Or if you already own a "normal" 5.56/.223 AR, one of the CMMG .22LR kits might be worth looking into.
 
Was just looking at a post last night on TaurusArmed.net where they detailed all of the variants of the m&p rifles (15 and 15-22) sold at Walmart. I was suprised by some of the prices...both high and low.
 
Interesting. We have owned one for about 5 years and shot thousands of rounds through it without an issue. Makes me wonder if S&W cheapened some parts.
 
I think you guys should put a date on that limitation. Rifles built between x and y dates for example. I have put tens of thousands of rounds through mine, over the course of years. With no problems at all. Probably in upwards of 30,000 rounds. I easily go through 500 or more a month. Without a single issue. For clarification I have a 15-22 Performance Center model.
 
Shoot enough 22LR with almost any model and OBD's will happen. I've never had one with my S&W 15-22 (about 15k rounds through it by my record), but have had with: Ruger 10/22 (multiple rifles), Marlin 60 (multiple rifles), Ruger Mark II (multiple pistols), Ruger Mark III, S&W 41, Browning Buckmark, & Beretta Neos.

Every one has been an individual, non-repeatable instance, and in every occurrence, it was indicated by feeding and/or extraction failures around the same time, AND in every occurrence, it was eliminated by cleaning.

The pin walking might be a specific design weakness, but without specific product design assessment, I think issuing a ban seems a lot more political than scientific. "It just fell apart" isn't very technical. I hear/read it said all the time, but in many years working for gunsmiths, operating shooting ranges, and competing in shooting sports myself, I've never seen a firearm "just fall apart." Parts fall off, things break, and malfunctions happen, but simply "falling apart" doesn't really happen. Were these firearms modified in any way to make them more suitable for competition? Any aftermarket parts used? Were they using ammunition approved in the owners manual? Clean (relatively)?
 
Varminterror brings up a good point, especially with two things.

1. Not knowing if they were modified at home.

2. Not knowing if they were using ammunition recommended by the manufacturer or NOT recommended. I know my 15-22PC model came with a list of what is not recommended in it. In fact I remember it coming with a list of what works best, as well. Was the ammunition used on the list of what to use or what not to use?
 
Anyone else see something like this and (besides wondering why S&W hasn't fixed this if it's a known issue) wonder which companies are making donations to this organization? It might be the conspiracy theorist in me, but when I see a statement like this put out, I wonder who's money is behind it.

Then again, it's possible (probable even) that it's perfectly legitimate. But when a website doesn't list the corporate donations (at least not that I could find, just a paragraph saying the benefactors were too numerous to mention), it leaves room for questions.
 
When everyone was recommending M&P15-22s, I elected instead to go with a dedicated .22LR AR-15 (CMMG .22LR upper on a PSA lower).

I've always been glad I did.
 
What is S&W going to investigate? The postings all look like different failure types, at least two of which S&W took care of the particular failures as warranty repairs.

If you're just saying the M&P 15-22 is a poor design, cite specific design failings. If you're just saying the product is sub-standard without cited specific failings, then I'm prone to disregard it.

And of course, for every guy who's seen an OBD in one model, there's a guy who's seen it in another. I used to see a lot of OBD's in 10/22 and Mark II race guns - guys would try to use waxed match stuff in a high round count race match, things gum up and don't quite close, but it still goes bang...

I've been to some Appleseed shoots, and I'll readily admit the political motivation is one of the things which keeps me from going regularly. Knowing S&W's political past, especially against Ruger's, I can't say I wouldn't expect there's a little of that particular flavor sprinkled into this "ban".

From another angle, I also don't tend to see Appleseed having enough share of the competitive shooting market to put much of a hurt on S&W, and to couple with that, I don't see the M&P 15-22 in other shooting sports, so I doubt this will ever get any traction unless SPECIFIC DESIGN FLAWS ARE CITED upon which S&W can focus. "The thing just fell apart" is pretty non-descript, and one guy's statement "I've seen two OBD's in S&W's and none in a 10/22" isn't qualified with any supporting reference for his experience, credibility, or exposure, so I'm not prone to give either much weight.

I tend to NOT buy S&W firearms based on politics as well as product offerings, but I do own a number of them, including a 15-22. I'd never imagine competing with it, it's a cheap plinking toy, not a competition quality rifle. Having done enough rimfire racing in the past to know what doesn't work, I can say it's very clear the 15-22 is NOT the rifle for that particular job. Banning it should have very little effect on your constituency.
 
One thing to keep in mind here is that Appleseed shoots huge amounts of .22 ammo (between a quarter and a half million rounds a month give or take) and sees a wide variety of rifles on the line. They also have a procedure in place for central reporting of all safety related issues at all of their shoots. As such they have a sample size that no individual shooter or even shooting event can come close to matching. When they say they're seeing problems with a specific weapon and not another, you can bet they mean it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Appleseed has no interest in alienating S&W and much of the internal discussion on this ban was related to that. The theory that there's somehow "money" or "politics" behind this is absurd. The PITA factor that this will create for Appleseed instructors and shoot bosses is enormous since numerous shoot info pages will have to be updated and shooters who don't get the message or don't have an alternative will have to be provided with loaner rifles. The ONLY reason this is being done is that it's a safety issue, and has already resulted in one fairly serious injury. Not requiring an investigation and remedy in that situation would be both negligent and frankly immoral.

Also, the idea that OOB discharges are an expected part of shooting .22 rifles is absurd.

It's also worth mentioning that Appleseed is not a venue for competitive shooting. It's a venue for marksmanship and history instruction.
 
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