Making a Father's responsibilty a crime in Calif.

[John Joseph]

Not really a 2A topic, so I'll post this here. Mods you know better than I so please move or delete as you see fit.

In CA in 2018 loaning a firearm and/or ammunition will be illegal---no excuses no exceptions (so far.) (Moderator's note: This is incorrect. See post 7.)

Some years ago when my boy was 10 or 11, on a brisk autumn Sunday afternoon we drove into the Sierra and walked a good ways from where I parked the sedan on a forestry road.
We reviewed the 10-Commandments of Gun Safety in the car on the drive up (the lad already knew them of course, but review is good) as he had already shot a .22 rifle and .410 shotgun.
It was one of those autumn days when the whole world, it seemed, was covered in brightly colored autumn leaves, like walking into a painting. After a quarter mile we came across good steep berm that would serve as a backstop.
I set up some pine cones and good size piece of bark I'd collected on our walk against the berm for targets and retreated to thirty paces where I unlocked the MTM pistol case and, after showing the lad how to check to see if a pistol is unloaded and showing him how to load the magazine and reviewing the finer points sighting and trigger squeeze, loaned my .22 S&W and a partially open box of CCI-SV to him (this was during the ammo shortage.)
He was so excited he nearly came out of his skin!

One the second shot one of the pine cones went flying(!) Then he turned his attention towards the bark and did good.

After an hour it threatened to rain so we policed our brass using a very old coffee can---I cannot remember but it could have been one used by my dad---and we returned to the car.

We stopped at a small Indy drive-in on the way home to celebrate with French Fries and milk shakes, as is my boy's custom after such father/son outings.

I'll always be the boy's father of course, it is a 24/7 job but that afternoon in a blaze of autumn leaves was perhaps one of the most gratifying dad gigs ever, teaching my son how to shoot a pistol.
Maybe you've experienced the same thing, although it is clear many of you didn't have gun savvy fathers so maybe this story sounds foreign (I'm a BSA shotgun instructor and have worked with scouts from gun-shy backgrounds, so I "get it") .

So what's my point?
Teaching your kid how to shoot isn't guaranteed by the 2A, but neither is it prohibited.
Teaching your kid how to defend himself and his loved ones (and by extension, his country, which btw, was the impetus for the establishment of the NRA) is the natural responsibility of fathers or father figures if they are able and equipped to do so.

With the change in the state law making loaning firearms and ammunition illegal, the Legislators and groups who supported this bill are taking this responsibility (and reward) of fatherhood away from fathers.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

While I strongly oppose this law, I don't think letting someone shoot your gun while you are there is "loaning".

I would think "Loaning" to be defined as "here, you can borrow this gun for a few weeks/months/years."

I really wish we could get more CA gun owners to wake up.
So many just figure to just ignore the laws (as they are largely un-enforceable) that they don't take the time to stand up against these ever increasingly oppressive laws.

 

[CDW4ME]

Loaning ammo would be like loaning a Kleenex, aspirin, or chewing gum.

 

[everydefense]

That's a great story, @John Joseph. Sounds like a very special moment with your son.

Is the word "loan" defined in the law? I agree with @Corpral_Agarn that "loaning" should mean that the owner leaves the borrower with the gun and the two people part ways. The minimum and maximum time period of borrowing should also be defined, otherwise "I just left to go use the bathroom" or "hold onto this for me for 40 years" could be interpreted as loaning...

It would be asinine to say that handing the gun to someone else while you are still on the premises would be considered "borrowing", though I wouldn't put it past the antis.

However, one common thread to most gun control laws is poor definition, which isn't surprising considering the majority of those drafting those laws have no clue what they're talking about...

 

[old lady new shooter]

Not really a 2A topic, so I'll post this here. Mods you know better than I so please move or delete as you see fit.

In CA in 2018 loaning a firearm and/or ammunition will be illegal---no excuses no exceptions (so far.)

Some years ago when my boy was 10 or 11, on a brisk autumn Sunday afternoon we drove into the Sierra and walked a good ways from where I parked the sedan on a forestry road.
We reviewed the 10-Commandments of Gun Safety in the car on the drive up (the lad already knew them of course, but review is good) as he had already shot a .22 rifle and .410 shotgun.
It was one of those autumn days when the whole world, it seemed, was covered in brightly colored autumn leaves, like walking into a painting. After a quarter mile we came across good steep berm that would serve as a backstop.
I set up some pine cones and good size piece of bark I'd collected on our walk against the berm for targets and retreated to thirty paces where I unlocked the MTM pistol case and, after showing the lad how to check to see if a pistol is unloaded and showing him how to load the magazine and reviewing the finer points sighting and trigger squeeze, loaned my .22 S&W and a partially open box of CCI-SV to him (this was during the ammo shortage.)
He was so excited he nearly came out of his skin!

One the second shot one of the pine cones went flying(!) Then he turned his attention towards the bark and did good.

After an hour it threatened to rain so we policed our brass using a very old coffee can---I cannot remember but it could have been one used by my dad---and we returned to the car.

We stopped at a small Indy drive-in on the way home to celebrate with French Fries and milk shakes, as is my boy's custom after such father/son outings.

I'll always be the boy's father of course, it is a 24/7 job but that afternoon in a blaze of autumn leaves was perhaps one of the most gratifying dad gigs ever, teaching my son how to shoot a pistol.
Maybe you've experienced the same thing, although it is clear many of you didn't have gun savvy fathers so maybe this story sounds foreign (I'm a BSA shotgun instructor and have worked with scouts from gun-shy backgrounds, so I "get it") .

So what's my point?
Teaching your kid how to shoot isn't guaranteed by the 2A, but neither is it prohibited.
Teaching your kid how to defend himself and his loved ones (and by extension, his country, which btw, was the impetus for the establishment of the NRA) is the natural responsibility of fathers or father figures if they are able and equipped to do so.

With the change in the state law making loaning firearms and ammunition illegal, the Legislators and groups who supported this bill are taking this responsibility (and reward) of fatherhood away from fathers.

Really enjoyed reading your story, thanks for posting.

I think "loaning" doesn't apply when you are present with the firearm and the person using it. Hopefully one of our resident attorneys can clarify.

 

[DPris]

It would depend entirely on the actual wording of the law, which we don't have here.
If somebody could post relevant sections of the new law, that'd be helpful.
Denis

 

[illinoisburt]

The text of the law has a specific exemption for close family relations, so the father/son shooting session wouldn't be afoul of the law as written so long as the guns is legally registered to the dad.

CA Penal Code §27880 and §16730 define what construed as a loan, and how long the agreement can last. The law defines loans as short term instruments. Have to be infrequent (less than 6 times per year) and shorter than 30 days.

Adding links:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16730.&lawCode=PEN

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=27880.

 

[John Joseph]

The text of the law has a specific exemption for close family relations, so the father/son shooting session wouldn't be afoul of the law as written so long as the guns is legally registered to the dad.

CA Penal Code §27880 and §16730 define what construed as a loan, and how long the agreement can last. The law defines loans as short term instruments. Have to be infrequent (less than 6 times per year) and shorter than 30 days.

Adding links:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16730.&lawCode=PEN

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=27880.

Good to know. Thank you, sir!
What of old relics, or say black powder arms that were never registered?

 

[Frank Ettin]

....What of old relics, or say black powder arms that were never registered?

The registration requirement only applies to handguns. One can follow the links in post 7 to see the relevant statutes.

If someone has a handgun which is not registered but which he wants to allow his child to use as part of his child's learning to shoot and handle a gun, California law provides procedures to voluntarily register the firearm.

With that I'm closing this thread. The OP's story is interesting, and tales of learning to shoot as a child or of teaching one's children to shoot can be worthwhile, educational, and often touching. But the posting of the story here in the Legal Forum was based on a faulty premise.