Malfunctions-figure this one out.

[ZeSpectre]

I have a friend, he's a good shot and has been handling firearms for many years.

I have several very (for me) reliable semi-auto pistols, amongst them a Charles Daly 1911, a Tanfoglio Witness 10mm, and a CZ-75b 9mm, however when I put them in my friend's hands, he regularly has various malfunctions. :banghead:

I have watched him CLOSELY and he is not limp-wristing or doing anything unusual that I can spot so I can't for the life of me figure out how he makes auto-loaders mess up on such a regular basis.

Any thoughts?

 

[mr.trooper]

You can tell from watching him that he isn't limp-wristing?

 

[Tomcat47]

Sorry....if they work for you without malfunction....and in his hands the same gun malfunctions regularly....

He is Limping!

 

[Tomcat47]

Question?? Are his malfunctions the same?

Stovepipe?
Failure to Eject?

Does it fail to Return to Battery?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I'd like to know what level of accuracy he's getting.

Also, use your calibrated eye to see if he isn't molesting the slide stops while firing.

 

[Telekinesis]

Any chance it's his grip? I usually shoot Sigs (higher bore axis) and tend to have my left thumb pressed against the frame between the deckcker and the takedown lever and have to be careful on some other guns with different slide profiles (Bersa .380, some 1911s) that my thumb isn't resting on the slide and rubbing it as it recoils (slowing the slide velocity). Something like that could be the culprit if he's not limp wristing.

 

[ZeSpectre]

You can tell from watching him that he isn't limp-wristing?

Yes, why would that be so amazing. Besides which a guy who is fond of heavy .44mag loads isn't too likely to be wimpy about gun handling.

Question?? Are his malfunctions the same?

Mostly, failure to return to battery/failure to feed, often with the loading round "nosediving" on the feed ramp.

I'd like to know what level of accuracy he's getting.

He and I both bounce shotgun hulls around at 25 yards no problem.

that my thumb isn't resting on the slide and rubbing it as it recoils

There is a thought. He's got BIG hands and he does a lot of farm work (i.e. callouses) so I suppose he could be rubbing the slide and not even realizing it.

 

[Tomcat47]

Mostly, failure to return to battery/failure to feed, often with the loading round "nosediving" on the feed ramp.

He needs to tighten up his grip!

He is either "limp wristing" via loose grip or:

so I suppose he could be rubbing the slide and not even realizing it.

He is riding the slide somehow as mentioned by Telekenisis...

He is used to powerful handguns as you mentioned .44 magnum, however when he goes to Autoloader he is out of element on a firearm that is recoil operated.

The slightest of error could be causing his problems, and given problem points toward loose grip, riding the slide, or some other element that is not letting recoil spring fully compress...thus ending in failure to return to battery!

Thats my guess anyway....and the investigation begins!

 

[dcarch]

Bizzare. I haven't got the foggiest.

 

[fastbolt]

Just because someone has large hands and has spent a lot of time shooting Magnum revolvers, it doesn't automatically mean they'll have a properly locked wrist supporting their grip.

As a matter of fact, it's not exactly unknown for Magnum revolver shooters to deliberately allow their wrists to relax & flex a bit during the initial moment of recoil ... which is exactly what will cause a "limp-wrist" malfunction in a semiauto pistol.

I grew up shooting Magnum Ruger revolvers. The best way to help mitigate recoil force and minimize wear & tear on your wrist is to let your wrist have some "give" during recoil. You can do this with a firm grip, too.

Just because someone has very large hands & wrists, and may possess above average strength, it doesn't necessarily preclude them from not properly stabilizing their wrist lock & grip technique, and it's not surprising that it would be unintentional and unknown to them when it's happening.

It's also not something you can typically "see" happening to other folks when it's occurring, although you can certainly see the effect (feeding stoppages, and even empty cases getting trapped in the ejection port if it's bad enough).

The nuances of such things can be perplexing at times, and might well vary among different designs of pistols and calibers, depending on the individual.

Some folks can't get a pistol to exhibit a grip stability/support problem even when really trying, though. Other folks can virtually accomplish it upon demand.

Then there's the folks who might only seldom experience it, and it might only be when they're starting to get fatigued, or shooting from an unfamiliar position, etc.

Thumbing the slide can also contribute to this issue if he uses a high thumb position. (Shoot's SA Magnum revolvers instead of DA?)

 

[rcmodel]

I have seen 275 pound match shooters make a wad-cutter gun malfunction constantly that worked fine in my 175 pound armors hands.

Generally, there is more then one way to "limp wrist" a gun.

A hard hold and fixed wrist can be negated by a flexing elbow, or limp shoulder backing it.
Or a stiff wrist, and a soft grip & palm padding fat?
Or an over-size thumb rubbing on the slide he doesn't know is even close to the slide, until recoil moves it for a split-second?

Sometimes, it takes a pile of pondering to figure it out.
But if it works for you, it will work for him.

If you figure out what he is doing, and get him to hold his mouth right.

rc

 

[1SOW]

Is he a SA pistol shooter and resting a thumb on the safety? First best guess, he's riding the slide someway and slowing it enough to cause a FTFeed.

 

[twofifty]

rcmodel, please explain about this mouth tip:
"If you figure out what he is doing, and get him to hold his mouth right.

Does clenching the jaws affect our grip?

 

[fastbolt]

... and get him to hold his mouth right.

Old saying.

He's right, too.

 

[beatledog7]

"Holding your mouth right" is a hyperbole for ensuring your process and technique are correct.

It comes either from playing wind instruments or from carpentry, I think. I'll let somebody else look up the etymology. My father used to be completely unable to drive a nail straight unless the tip of his tongue extended slightly from the right side of his lips.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

"Holding your mouth right" is a hyperbole for ensuring your process and technique are correct.

It comes either from playing wind instruments or from carpentry, I think. I'll let somebody else look up the etymology. My father used to be completely unable to drive a nail straight unless the tip of his tongue extended slightly from the right side of his lips.

Now thats funny.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If your friend isn't careful, he can be letting a thumb rub against the slide as it flies back -- as mentioned above -- reducing it's momentum and causing it to have insufficient force to close when it picks up the next round.

 

[ZeSpectre]

As a matter of fact, it's not exactly unknown for Magnum revolver shooters to deliberately allow their wrists to relax & flex a bit during the initial moment of recoil ... which is exactly what will cause a "limp-wrist" malfunction in a semiauto pistol.

Fastbolt...you make a good point.

 

[1911Tuner]

Assuming that he isn't letting his thumb ride the slide and bleeding off its momentum...and I don't see how anyone could do that without knowing it...if the slide is properly sprung, it should run regardless of the grip.

I've demonstrated this by lightly cradling the pistol, supported by the web of my hand, with my wrist broken in two planes...elbow bent 90 degrees...shoulder relaxed...and barely applying enough pressure to disengage the grip safety and pull the trigger.

I think a lot of limp grip-induced malfunctions with the 1911 pistol are the result of overspringing the slide...which comes from the notion that heavy springs are necessary to prevent frame damage.

In every pistol that I've handled over complaints of these types of malfunctions...with one shooter having problems and another having zero problems..there's been too much spring involved, and most often way yonder too much spring.

Recently, a guy at the range walked up and asked me to look at his pistol to see if I could figure out "What in tarnation is wrong with this thing." I racked the slide, and nearly lost my grip on it...and I've got strong hands. Turned out that he'd installed a 24-pound spring in it in order to "Save the frame" from utter destruction. After explaining it to him, I loaned him the spring out of one of my pistols, and his problems disappeared.

So, Ze...What sort of spring does this pistol have?

 

[Zerodefect]

I drag thumbs on my slides as well. Even have some where on my DW V's slide from such. It only caused FTRTB malfs when I was a new to autos.

Either he isn't riding the gun as high as he is supposed to, has limp arms, or is dragging his thumb on the slide.

 

[ZeSpectre]

So, Ze...What sort of spring does this pistol have?

Springs are all stock for each model of gun.
He's the first person I've ever seen make a CZ-97b mess up like that so I'm REALLY stumped. And to re-state. I have no issues with any of the firearms in question, they all run like timex watches for me (well, the 10mm demands strong ammo but other than that...)

 

[Fremmer]

Presuming the springs are normal you would think it has to be technique.
Speaking from personal experience, the regular sized or thinner single stack guns can be a challenge to shoot with really big sweaty hands. They tend to shift around, especially with slick plastic or wood grips.

 

[1911Tuner]

Have him fire the gun with one hand after assuming his normal two-hand stance...the removing his support hand without altering anything else. If it runs...he's doing something to decelerate the slide with his support hand. If it doesn't, have him fire one handed using the slow-fire Bullseye technique, which forces his arm bones into alignment. If it runs then, he needs to work on his strong-hand grip.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Mostly, failure to return to battery/failure to feed, often with the loading round "nosediving" on the feed ramp.

Make sure he isn't hitting the mag release during recoil.

His grip might be keeping the mag in, but if the mag release is pressed and the mag moves even slightly out of position a failure to feed/go into battery is common.