wQuay, the point I was trying to make was that war should be so terrible that the enemy cannot stand to pay the cost of continued fighting. Air Marshal Harris was saying that the enemy should suffer so much that they will quit. I hope and pray that no civilians are harmed in Iraq but , in war, the reality is is that they will be. I agree with Gen. Patton that great violence for a short time is better than a long, protracted, low intensity conflict. YMMV.