Mechanical vs Electronic Locks

[CapnMac]

What may be germane here is a quick primer on just how a mechanical combination lock works:


For combination dial lock that can be changed, you use the bolt mechanism to lock which number is the one that opens things, which usually works in reverse of the dialing sequence (but you need to refer to your lock's manual).

For many dial units, the factory setting them has picked the three out of 3 x 99 digits used. They then match that to the container's s/n--which is achievable given the low volume of containers made. But, if you reset the mechanical combination, you'd need a locksmith to decipher the new code.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

the three out of 3 x 99 digits used. They then match that to the container's s/n--which is achievable given the low volume of containers made.

It's not quite 3x99. It's actually 99x98x97 as the numbers, I don't believe, can repeat on a combination lock. The more numbers in the combo, the higher the number of available permutations (useable combos). A safe that has three numbers would provide 941,094 available combos. With a four-numbered lock, you get 90,345,024 permutations.

That fourth number makes a huge difference. I wonder how that impacts the ability and time required to "crack" a safe combo. Like, how much longer does a thief (or the government) need to crack open a four-numbered lock, or would they just go right to drilling the door or cutting the back.

 

[hutch51]

Changed mechanical locks on a few different types of GSA safes. It' not particularly difficult.

But, to quote a couple of Very Wise Souls up-thread: "Check the new combo with the door OPEN". You may save yourself tons of grief and money. (Not me, another guy.)

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Yes...check it out several times, in fact, and be sure to verify the components are still securely (and properly) mounted each time.

 

[Walkalong]

If it's in the dial, it's to lock it.

Yep, although I have never used it.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

As a Liberty gun safe owner I am struggling to be outraged. I knew the backdoor existed when I got my safe, it says so in the manual. I appreciated knowing that if I lost my code they could get me into my safe. I never bought my safe to keep law enforcement out I use it to slow down theives and buy me done time in a fire. Law enforcement, if they want it will get in, they have the time and resources to do it. Despite recent revelations nothing has changed that effects my use case. YMMV.

I thought about this some more today. I wonder, if the suspect int his case, instead of being a J6 participant, had been a fentanyl dealer, and that safe had been full of drugs, and if the agency requesting the aid had been a local police department instead of the Federal government, if anyone would be upset over this. I suspect that a lot of the outrage has to do with what the suspect was charged with and the agency that requested the aid. (And if I'm right, that says a whole lot more than we can discuss here.)

Nonetheless, I don't think it's out of line to be concerned that your safe manufacturer, whoever it is, and whatever their policy, could have their data breeched and with it your security compromised. I think maintaining lists, in general, is a bad idea. I certainly see your argument that, having a backdoor, or just a database of serial numbers and combos is a safety net for the consumer. Yet, when you look at Apple computer's older OS (it's gone at least as of OS 13), it had an app for encrypting your entire hard drive. You set your own password. Before you hit enter, you got a big message that basically said if you lose or forget this password, you will have to erase the entire hard drive and lose everything to get back into the computer. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something similar from a safe/lock maker. (BTW: I never encrypted my hard drive because of that warning. Maybe I shouldn't change the combo on my lock, either. lol)

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I thought about this some more today. I wonder, if the suspect int his case, instead of being a J6 participant, had been a fentanyl dealer, and that safe had been full of drugs, and if the agency requesting the aid had been a local police department instead of the Federal government, if anyone would be upset over this. I suspect that a lot of the outrage has to do with what the suspect was charged with and the agency that requested the aid. (And if I'm right, that says a whole lot more than we can discuss here.)

Nonetheless, I don't think it's out of line to be concerned that your safe manufacturer, whoever it is, and whatever their policy, could have their data breeched and with it your security compromised. I think maintaining lists, in general, is a bad idea. I certainly see your argument that, having a backdoor, or just a database of serial numbers and combos is a safety net for the consumer. Yet, when you look at Apple computer's older OS (it's gone at least as of OS 13), it had an app for encrypting your entire hard drive. You set your own password. Before you hit enter, you got a big message that basically said if you lose or forget this password, you will have to erase the entire hard drive and lose everything to get back into the computer. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something similar from a safe/lock maker. (BTW: I never encrypted my hard drive because of that warning. Maybe I shouldn't change the combo on my lock, either. lol)

The problem is that we don't necessarily hear about these types of details, especially for run of the mill, non major political events.

However, to answer your question personally, yes I would be upset. If Uncle Sam has a case, then Uncle Sam shouldn't be pulling stunts like this, I don't care WHO they're pulling the stunt against.

However, I'm well aware that not everybody thinks like me.

 

[GHinNH]

Nothing new with electronic keypad locks, I've wanted to swap mine out for quite some time already...

If Gov wants in, they'll get in one way or another, period.

However, to make it less easy remove the S/N plate from the outside, and/or from the back of the keypad itself.
New keypad/actuator "locks" can be bought many many places online for around $100, and swapped out with a bit of mechanical aptitude. Some specify the master code can be set to whatever you choose.

It would be nice to think that companies would tell Gov to go pound sand just on general principle, but if the scamdemic taught any lesson, it's that most everyone are pliable compliant sheep.

 

[bassjam]

I know we're discussing mechanical vs electronic, but these locks are pretty standard. If you have an elecronic lock on your safe now and want to keep an electronic lock, they're not that hard to swap out yourself, or a locksmith can do so for you. Pick up a replacement digital lock for $100-200, install it, and now the backdoor combination isn't tied to your safe's serial number anymore.

 

[Remington1911]

I know we're discussing mechanical vs electronic, but these locks are pretty standard. If you have an elecronic lock on your safe now and want to keep an electronic lock, they're not that hard to swap out yourself, or a locksmith can do so for you. Pick up a replacement digital lock for $100-200, install it, and now the backdoor combination isn't tied to your safe's serial number anymore.

You should not have to. This is the point.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

A few years ago I was looking at safes. I had a hard time finding any with dial combinations. It seems the entire industry has gone to electronic locks. I don’t like the unreliability factor of electronics and therefore prefer things that don’t run on batteries. Call me a luddite if you will. Never even considered there could be a backdoor combo to electronic locks. Perhaps manual dial safes will make a comeback after all .

 

[D.B. Cooper]

A few years ago I was looking at safes. I had a hard time finding any with dial combinations. It seems the entire industry has gone to electronic locks. I don’t like the unreliability factor of electronics and therefore prefer things that don’t run on batteries. Call me a luddite if you will. Never even considered there could be a backdoor combo to electronic locks. Perhaps manual dial safes will make a comeback after all .

This episode may, indeed, bring about a resurgence in mechanical locks. And you're right, it's hard to find safes with mechanical locks these days.

 

[bassjam]

A few years ago I was looking at safes. I had a hard time finding any with dial combinations. It seems the entire industry has gone to electronic locks. I don’t like the unreliability factor of electronics and therefore prefer things that don’t run on batteries. Call me a luddite if you will. Never even considered there could be a backdoor combo to electronic locks. Perhaps manual dial safes will make a comeback after all .

I have the same concerns regarding reliability with electronic locks although I found mechanicals are not without issues. Mine (La Gard) started giving me problems after about 15 years where it'd take 3-4 tries to get in. I was going to replace the lock, but on a whim decided to buy a reset key and reset the combination. That worked, somehow the tumblers must have gotten out of line and it's been problem free for the 2 years since.

 

[doubleh]

Both of my safes are old and eletronic locks were just beginning to appear. No way was I going to be a tester for brand new, unproven tech so I chose mechanical. I have only had a problem with one of them when the dial became very hard to turn. I removed the cover on the back of the door and my wife volunteered her sewing machine oil for lubricant. Now it turns so easily I have to be careful not to overrun the numbers. Even easier than when brand new.

My son-in- law purchased an electronic safe a few years ago as mechanical lock ones are about like hen's teeth now. Three months and the lock quit. My daughter called the maker and received instructions on how to get it to work again, a very simple procedure. They bought another two years ago and it hasn't given a problem------yet. Lock technology may be improving.

 

[JDeere]

I don't worry about that kind of stuff. If the Feds want in they will get in with or without a combo. Electronic locks well I just check and replace the battery as needed. I take my backs off the doors and check lube and any nuts or bolts for looseness. Seems to work pretty well.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I have a simple view of this.

I worked for a dealer who sold real safes as well RSCs. Liberty RSCs, in fact. When it came to overall problems with these items, the electronic lock was the culprit a whopping 90% of the time. In one way or another. Battery, forgotten combo, buttons wouldnt work when pressed, circuit board failure, etc.

People forgot the combo with mechanical locks too. Sometimes they forgot how to manipulate the dial correctly. This happened far less than e-lock failures.

Other problems were the innards of the safes falling off or some other aesthetic problem. Apparently a lot more can go wrong with safes than just the locks failing depending on who the customer is.

This place had sold thousands of safes over the years and not one mechanical lock failed on any of the items they ever sold. At least they never heard about it and they should have one way or another.

This is the reason I recommend mechanical locks every time. My advice to folks is usually to buy the cheapest safe that will fit their needs and since it will invariably come with an e-lock, to swap it out with a mechanical. The reason to buy cheap is that unless it is a real safe, most RSCs can be bypassed equally regardless of price point. Fire ratings are a feel good specification as far as I am concerned as I never saw a safe or RSC ever truly protect firearms that were inside. There was always catastrophic damage.

Unless you need quick access to the contents and are up for scheduled maintenance, dont get an e-lock...is my opinion.

 

[Zebraranger]

Both of my rotary dial safes are so old that I dont have to worry about a back door. They were made before woke American company's started selling out their customers, and or selling their customers information. As previously mentioned, My safe is to keep thieves' hands off of my guns. If LE wants to get into your safe, they have ways to do so, the back door access is just easier for them.

 

[Chuck R.]

I have the same concerns regarding reliability with electronic locks although I found mechanicals are not without issues. Mine (La Gard) started giving me problems after about 15 years where it'd take 3-4 tries to get in. I was going to replace the lock, but on a whim decided to buy a reset key and reset the combination. That worked, somehow the tumblers must have gotten out of line and it's been problem free for the 2 years since.

I had similar with an S&G dial.

Apparently some number combinations just aren't optimal. I changed the combo 6 years ago and it's been fine since

 

[bassjam]

I had similar with an S&G dial.

Apparently some number combinations just aren't optimal. I changed the combo 6 years ago and it's been fine since

I've heard the numbers can "shift" just a digit or two in either direction and cause the problem I had.

My kids also came into my office a few times and spun the dial around and while I put a stop to it pretty quickly, that was also around the time I started having issues. I think it was the final nail in the coffin to something that was about to happen anyway.

 

[hso]

Liberty will delete the codes for your safe from their files if you request it.

Combination Removal Request Form

Combination Removal Request Form I authorize Liberty Safe to remove any combination or reset code associated with my safe from their records. I understand by submitting this form, Liberty Safe will be unable to support service requests for my lock. Before filling out the form below, depending on...

www.libertysafe.com

Since most (if not all) electronic combination locks like these come from the very few manufacturers of them, you may want to request the safe company delete any safety net codes if you're concerned about the codes getting into hands you don't approve of.

 

[epags]

Unless it isn't clear the answer is no, there are no secret second mechanical lock combinations. We've seen that this is not how mechanical combination locks are constructed. Further, there's no need since a locksmith can open these combination lock safes using their tools and training.

You don't have to be a locksmith. I bought a house and there was a floor safe (one that is cast into the concrete floor). Seller did not have the combo. I was at a Ace Hardware store and they were selling the same model. The manager allowed me to read the instructions. You know Left x times, Right x times and Left x times. So I knew what order the combo should work.In the evenings while my family was asleep and the house quiet, I used my kid's toy stethoscope to t urn the dials in the proper order. After a couple of false starts I was able to open it.
Unhappily, there were no jewels or money in it.
I contacted the manufacturer and they wanted an arm and leg to re do the combo. I studied it for a few days and saw how to rotate the disks to a new combination, which I did successfully.
When I sold the house I did provide the info to the new buyers.

 

[hso]

I used my kid's toy stethoscope to t urn the dials in the proper order. After a couple of false starts I was able to open it.

That's a wonderful story. I can envision you with a toy stethoscope crouched by the safe in full Dad/Safe Cracker mode.

 

[epags]

That's a wonderful story. I can envision you with a toy stethoscope crouched by the safe in full Dad/Safe Cracker mode.

And that is what it was like...in my pajamas.

 

[bassjam]

People forgot the combo with mechanical locks too. Sometimes they forgot how to manipulate the dial correctly. This happened far less than e-lock failures.

My wife called me one day needing to get into my safe to get the kids' birth cirtificates. For the life of me I couldn't remember the combination (and it wasn't even because I was afraid of what else she'd find inside). I still couldn't tell you my combination, but if I'm standing in front of my safe I go on auto-pilot and just start spinning the dial.