Military Heritage Guns

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ThomasT

ThomasT

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Anyone know anything about the guns sold by these folks? I have seen them advertised in The Backwoodsman Magazine several times but never heard of anyone who owned one of their guns.

http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket28.htm

They are all smooth bore trade guns without the touch hole drilled so they are considered display, non firing replicas. Drill out the touch hole and you have a working gun. I like this one the best.

http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket29.htm
 
These are Pakistani or Indian made guns that are available from a variety of sources. They have teak stocks and barrels that start out as seamless tubing. The undrilled touch hole allows them to be shipped as "non-guns" but also insulates the sellers from liability if something goes wrong. By drilling the touch hole you assume the liability yourself.

My advice would be to stay far away from them.
 
Ironhand54 said:
You might look at these folks.

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com
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That's another one of the sources I mentioned. Another is Loyalist Arms.

All these vendors get their guns from the same places in India / Pakistan. All are similar in quality and method of construction.

You'll pay more getting an Italian reproduction but you'll be much happier in the long run.

When I was doing Civil War reenacting, I ended up with a bunch of Indian bayonets. These were terrible quality, but at first I didn't know any better. To try to improve them, I replaced the clasps with original clasps. But eventually I just got complete original bayonets. (You can get original Civil War bayonets for $125, while the Indian repops cost $75. There is no question which is the better value in the long run.)
 
I wish people would be more precise...,

While they are all of the same national origin, Loyalist Arms and Veteran arms deliver a product with the touchhole drilled and instructions for live fire of their pieces. So the liability issue isn't one as you find with a piece that you, the buyer, convert to live fire. The barrels come from India undrilled to comply with Indian export laws. Further, there are people in Europe who want these pieces simply for display. They have to maintain them in a non-firing condition or pay for them to be tested...even if never intended to be fired.

FYI I know of several owners of the Loyalist Arms muskets that live in England and Germany. To possess, not shoot, simply to possess those pieces, as I mentioned, requires they be submitted and pass testing at a proofing house. It's not cheap but it's less expensive than the fine if you get caught with an operational flintlock without a proof mark. In all of the cases, the Indian barrels in both England and Germany passed the proof test. Now of course that doesn't mean that the next barrel from the factory will be as good, but so far those that I know of that have been submitted to proof testing (which can only be done by a "house" that is part of the international CIP agreement btw) have passed without flaws.

It was because of them being sold ready to fire, that I tried them. I have four different muskets/trade guns. They are heavier than the Italian versions, but they work fine. Shoot well too.

LD
 
Loyalist Dave said:
I wish people would be more precise...,

While they are all of the same national origin, Loyalist Arms and Veteran arms deliver a product with the touchhole drilled and instructions for live fire of their pieces. So the liability issue isn't one as you find with a piece that you, the buyer, convert to live fire. The barrels come from India undrilled to comply with Indian export laws. Further, there are people in Europe who want these pieces simply for display. They have to maintain them in a non-firing condition or pay for them to be tested...even if never intended to be fired.

FYI I know of several owners of the Loyalist Arms muskets that live in England and Germany. To possess, not shoot, simply to possess those pieces, as I mentioned, requires they be submitted and pass testing at a proofing house. It's not cheap but it's less expensive than the fine if you get caught with an operational flintlock without a proof mark. In all of the cases, the Indian barrels in both England and Germany passed the proof test. Now of course that doesn't mean that the next barrel from the factory will be as good, but so far those that I know of that have been submitted to proof testing (which can only be done by a "house" that is part of the international CIP agreement btw) have passed without flaws.

It was because of them being sold ready to fire, that I tried them. I have four different muskets/trade guns. They are heavier than the Italian versions, but they work fine. Shoot well too.

LD
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nice I was looking at some of those that needed the touch hole drilled but didn't know about ones that are ready to go?
 
I see a lot of people posting on how "India Guns" are junk. What I rarely see is posts from owners of these guns detailing the specific problems they had.

I have one, a 75 caliber Cavalry Carbine. Is it as good as an Italian gun? No.
The finish is cruder and the breach plug is too long so that the touch hole has to angle slightly forward.

Does that bother me? Not as long as it shoots, and boy does it shoot. PRB or show, it's a hoot. I have shot 100gr fff and a .735 RB with no problems, except for the recoil. :what:

That's just my experience but I would say you shouldn't automatically dismiss these guns. Providing the gun comes with the vent drilled so that the seller has the liability.

Just my 2 pence worth
IronHand
 
Every Indian/Paki gun I’ve seen has soft, somewhat mushy wood that you could dent with a fingernail; and the metal fittings appear somewhat primitive and certainly hand fitted. But I’ve only handled a half dozen.

As Deniro said in the movie Ronin, “If there is a question... there is no question.”

If I want to gamble I’m going to Foxwoods or Vegas.... not putting my face on a 100gr fff potential IED.

/that’s Indian Explosive Device
 
AlexanderA said:
They use teak. Not only is it soft, but it's heavy and oily as well. This wood is good for boat decks but not for gunstocks.
Click to expand...

I was led to believe that the India gun stocks were made from Indian Rosewood which comes in many different hues.
Teak is a premium wood while Rosewood is a regular wood and would be more affordable.
FWIW this is only based on my own recollection of a previous discussion about the potential problems associated with inhaling Rosewood dust related to working on or refinishing India gun stocks.
 
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Loyalist Dave said:
First, one does not shoot a musket live with 3Fg...
Second, all those guns out there are blowing up all over the place..., WAIT...., no their not... and those that have been tested at proofing houses have passed, so far as you or I know...

LD
Click to expand...

Dave, you're right. I intended to say 2f. My mistake.

Ironhand
 
Bill is right..., you can save up and spend 2x the price, and get a gun, while not correct for the F&I, and marginally correct for the AWI, is made with interchangeable parts, and is lighter. Which is good if you happen to be unlucky and break a Pedersoli spring on the lock, or booger-up a screw, and with a 42" barrel on the Brown Bess, you can find after market metal ramrods that are inexpensive if you damage the tip on the Pedersoli beyond repair.

I chose something a bit more robust and durable, since I was going to put it to hard use, and am likely to wear it out, not resell it, and I bought two for the price of one....

LD
 
Loyalist Dave said:
Bill is right..., you can save up and spend 2x the price, and get a gun, while not correct for the F&I, and marginally correct for the AWI, is made with interchangeable parts, and is lighter. Which is good if you happen to be unlucky and break a Pedersoli spring on the lock, or booger-up a screw, and with a 42" barrel on the Brown Bess, you can find after market metal ramrods that are inexpensive if you damage the tip on the Pedersoli beyond repair.

I chose something a bit more robust and durable, since I was going to put it to hard use, and am likely to wear it out, not resell it, and I bought two for the price of one....

LD
Click to expand...
so loyalist dave I want a trade gun and I don't live on a large income but rather small so I am game for one of these cheaper guns! I was looking at veteran arms shipping policy but the only thing is they say 4-12 weeks to ship so who is much faster and I don't mind drilling the touch hole on the one's offered at military heritage if the shipping is much faster!
 
AlexanderA said:
They use teak. Not only is it soft, but it's heavy and oily as well. This wood is good for boat decks but not for gunstocks.
Click to expand...

The Veterans Arms website does state that most of their gun stocks are made from teak:--->>> http://www.veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/FAQs.html

I stand corrected.
Some of the antique India gun stocks were rosewood.
Some folks think that some India made gun stocks are teak-like but may be rosewood, and I'm not sure if they all come from the same manufacturer.
But I tend to believe what you & Veteran Arms has stated since I don't really know.
 
midland man said:
so loyalist dave I want a trade gun and I don't live on a large income but rather small so I am game for one of these cheaper guns! I was looking at veteran arms shipping policy but the only thing is they say 4-12 weeks to ship so who is much faster and I don't mind drilling the touch hole on the one's offered at military heritage if the shipping is much faster!
Click to expand...
So I don't own a Veteran Arms gun, though I've been in the woods with those who do, so I cannot comment on that company's shipping.
I have bought from Canada, a company called Loyalist Arms. I have one of their trade guns, and three of their muskets. They ship them ready to fire, but in two boxes..., gun in one box and lock in the other..., to comply with Canadian postal laws. NOW I think they will ship you the gun intact without the touch hole drilled. (At least they did, I don't keep up with current postal trends in Canada. ;)) I recommend having it drilled by the seller. I think there are less headaches that way.

Loyalist Arms can ship the day they get your order, IF they have any of what you want, currently in stock. So, you might have to send them an email to check on availability. http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/tradeguns.html (scroll down in the link for the English version)

Now the trade gun is heavier than a Pedersoli. Dixie Gun Works is selling the Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket as a kit (you just sand, stain, and seal the wood) for just $200 more than the Loyalist Arms trade gun. https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...8/product_name/FK3370+INDIAN+TRADE+MUSKET+KIT I own both, and they both shoot well, but the Pedersoli IS lighter in weight. Noticeable but not a vast difference. The Loyalist Arms gun is a bit more "authentic", except for the stock wood.

Whichever one you get, Track of The Wolf has wads for the guns https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/170/2. They sell pre made round ball in .600 and .610 too.

LD
 
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