Missouri 9mm cast issues.

[glennv]

I have been reloading with Missouri bullets in .357, .45 and 10mm without any issues but I have stockpiled a bunch of 9mm in 115 gr that will not pass the plunk test in any firearms that I own.

They're coated 9mm 115 gr at .356 diameter. I've tried the following with dummy loads:
Crimping between .372 and .377...no luck
Plunk test with case only....perfect fit
Seating bullets deeper and deeper and deeper...between 1.135 and 1.035. Went that low just to see if they would chamber...I know that's too short.

I typically use Blue Bullets coated 115 gr without any issues. With the Missouri cast 9mm they'll fit in my glocks and sigs with loose chambers but stick a tiny amount.

Suggestions?

 

[Dwb1957]

What type of crimp die are you using? Using a taper crimp die ,in a separate step set the crimp so that the bell is just removed you don't want a crimp should measure about .378. Good luck

 

[Tilos]

Have you measured the actual bullet diameter?
You can buy a Lee sizing die and push the bullets thru it, to unify/qualify the diameters.
Something I do to all bullets I buy, easier than measuring each one and only sizing what's found to be oversized.
anal I know...

 

[Dudedog]

MBC is normally very good quality wise.
Did you measure them and get .356 or are you assuming they are .356 because that is what they are supposed to be?
If they are oversize I am sure MBC will take care of it for you.

Just for fun seat one upside down with the base flush with the case mouth.
If it plunks then it is the nose of the bullet causing the issue (but I would think 1.035 would be deep enough to rule that out)
otherwise outside Dia of the case when loaded.
You could probably squeeze them down with a Lee FCD but neck tension and accuracy will suffer.

 

[ray15]

I'd color up the dummy round with a sharpie in the hopes of seeing where the interference lies.

 

[fxvr5]

I'd color up the dummy round with a sharpie in the hopes of seeing where the interference lies.

YES, use this method and you will see exactly what the problem is. No more guessing.

Demonstrated here: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/reloading-tips-the-plunk-test/

 

[glennv]

Yes to all of the above lol. I checked and they are true .356 diameter. I'm also using a taper crimp die, but in the same station as the seating. On the dummy rounds I'm definitely getting marks in the coating that indicate o-give is the issue. I guess its back to Blue Bullets.

 

[ray15]

Yes to all of the above lol. I checked and they are true .356 diameter. I'm also using a taper crimp die, but in the same station as the seating. On the dummy rounds I'm definitely getting marks in the coating that indicate o-give is the issue. I guess its back to Blue Bullets.

One thing to consider is many reloaders are loading well over length. By that I mean they are depending on the leade of their barrel in order to chamber, and if you use their combinations in a gun with no leade, you get problems like you are encountering. This is so common that it colors people's impression of how short they may have to go to chamber in a gun with little or no leade. They just never do it, so a shorter than considered OAL may be required.

I have a Hornady cartridge gauge that at 0.755" necks down immediately to 0.347", nominal land diameter (not groove, as with most gauges). For a cartridge to pass in this gauge, it must be truly SAAMI-compliant, meaning it can chamber without issue in a SAAMI-minimum 9mm luger chamber with no leade. I load my 9mm short enough to always clear in this gauge, as to my mind I'm not making compliant ammunition at longer OALs, whether the particular barrel I'm using has enough leade for them or not.

I have encountered 124gr. RN coated bullets (Acme) that reguired slightly shorter OALs than the 1.035" you tried to chamber by this standard. It sounds entirely to me like you have both a barrel with essentially no leade and a very blunt-nosed RN that requires an even shorter OAL than you've tried to chamber. Acme later revised their nose profile to a pointier one to allow longer OALs to be used, as people don't usually understand or care why they can't seat stuff really long (for whatever reason).

 

[243winxb]

SAAMI minimum COL is 1.000"

Measure your loaded rounds, compare to SAAMI chamber drawing.

 

[reddog81]

With the rounds loaded at 1.035 are you still getting marks on the bullet? That would be very odd.

 

[kcofohio]

Yes to all of the above lol. I checked and they are true .356 diameter. I'm also using a taper crimp die, but in the same station as the seating. On the dummy rounds I'm definitely getting marks in the coating that indicate o-give is the issue. I guess its back to Blue Bullets.

Sounds like a chamber with a shorter throat than the average chamber.
You'll probably have to watch some jacketed bullets too.
I had a barrel that I had to seat Precision Delta's 124 JHP at 1.035" to pass the plunk test. And most 147 gr., forget it.
But then I bought a throater reamer for the 9mm chamber. A tad bit of reaming, and problem solved.

 

[Tilos]

Yes to all of the above lol. I checked and they are true .356 diameter. I'm also using a taper crimp die, but in the same station as the seating. On the dummy rounds I'm definitely getting marks in the coating that indicate o-give is the issue. I guess its back to Blue Bullets.

Well OK then, thanks for the additional info
Missouri "small ball" is known to have a unique Ogive that requires the bullet to be seated deeper for some guns with short throat.
I've found that an OAL of 1.060" works for me/my guns, and many use/shoot this bullet at a shorter OAL without issue.
Here's what it says at MBC:
"When I seat your bullets according to the OAL that's in my (Lyman, Hornady, Lee, RCBS, et al.) manual, they won't chamber in my gun. What's wrong with your bullets?
What is wrong is that you are relying upon seating depth data based upon a bullet that is different from ours. Every bullet, even those that weigh the same, has a different shape. That's why the Lyman manual shows a unique seating depth for each of the bullets made from their mold sets.

To repeat - every bullet has a unique shape and the seating depth is unique to that particular bullet shape. To properly determine the seating depth required for a particular bullet, use the chamber of your gun as your case gauge. Generally speaking, seat the bullet to the maximum OAL length consistent with proper function. Do that and you're set!"

And, 9mm Blue Bullets are listed as 0.355" dia...
just sayin'

Edit:
Because you mentioned seating/crimping in one die, take a closed look at the case mouth for coating scraped off/piled up that will keep the round from "plunking".
Many (me too) use a bigger expander for cast bullets too.

 

[Tilos]

You don't mention the gun but if a short throat is the problem, a bullet with a different ogive may solve this, even a bullet with a step.
no step (what you have)

step

Here's something I stole from walkalong

 

[glennv]

Well OK then, thanks for the additional info
Missouri "small ball" is known to have a unique Ogive that requires the bullet to be seated deeper for some guns with short throat.
I've found that an OAL of 1.060" works for me/my guns, and many use/shoot this bullet at a shorter OAL without issue.
Here's what it says at MBC:
"When I seat your bullets according to the OAL that's in my (Lyman, Hornady, Lee, RCBS, et al.) manual, they won't chamber in my gun. What's wrong with your bullets?
What is wrong is that you are relying upon seating depth data based upon a bullet that is different from ours. Every bullet, even those that weigh the same, has a different shape. That's why the Lyman manual shows a unique seating depth for each of the bullets made from their mold sets.

To repeat - every bullet has a unique shape and the seating depth is unique to that particular bullet shape. To properly determine the seating depth required for a particular bullet, use the chamber of your gun as your case gauge. Generally speaking, seat the bullet to the maximum OAL length consistent with proper function. Do that and you're set!"

And, 9mm Blue Bullets are listed as 0.355" dia...
just sayin'

Edit:
Because you mentioned seating/crimping in one die, take a closed look at the case mouth for coating scraped off/piled up that will keep the round from "plunking".
Many (me too) use a bigger expander for cast bullets too.

Yeah I know the Blue Bullets are 0.355" diameter and the MO bullets are 0.356" however I'm an idiot for buying the 0.356" MO bullets everytime I walked into the shop. They were cheap and now I'm sitting on a mountain of 4000 bullets. Since I had no issues with their .45 and 10mm I figured "what could go wrong?"

 

[ray15]

Yeah I know the Blue Bullets are 0.355" diameter and the MO bullets are 0.356" however I'm an idiot for buying the 0.356" MO bullets everytime I walked into the shop. They were cheap and now I'm sitting on a mountain of 4000 bullets. Since I had no issues with their .45 and 10mm I figured "what could go wrong?"

There's likely no reason you can't use them. Just because you're used to loading closer to the 1.169" max rather than the 1.000" minimum OAL does not mean shorter OALs are unworkable. You just have to recognize you'll need to adjust load data to compensate for the deeper seating depth (should that actually be the case, calculate). If you still don't clear at 1.000" the game is really over.

 

[Walkalong]

Here's something I stole from walkalong

Well, I may have stolen it myself, but hopefully I gave credit to whoever I got it from, if I did.

Or you my have borrowed it from bds or another member, as I don't really remember it.

 

[Tilos]

Yeah I know the Blue Bullets are 0.355" diameter and the MO bullets are 0.356" however I'm an idiot for buying the 0.356" MO bullets everytime I walked into the shop. They were cheap and now I'm sitting on a mountain of 4000 bullets. Since I had no issues with their .45 and 10mm I figured "what could go wrong?"

Regretfully Lee doesn't list a 0.355" push thru sizing die, as they are only about $20, I have 3 sizers in 0.356, 0.357, 0.358.
I've read that Lee will make a custom size for about +$10, but can't confirm that.
Maybe someone else sells a 0.355" die.
With that said, I don't think that 0.001" difference in diameter is your problem, jmo

edit: try this...
Put a MBC bullet in the problem barrel, pinch a fired case slightly oval, and push that case into the barrel behind/over the bullet until the case hits the step in the chamber.
It might take some force to get the case over the bullet and against the shoulder but that's a good thing, as the bullet will be held in position.
Now push the bullet/case assembly out of the barrel from the muzzle, and carefully measure the OAL.
That measurement is the longest OAL you can load that bullet for that barrel/gun.
Set the seater to get an OAL about 0.010" shorter and you should be good to go.

 

[Dudedog]

If you can't get a working OAL with them you might try giving MBC a call to see if you could maybe swap them for a different MBC bullet.
MBC makes good bullets and seems to care about their customers.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Before you give up on those MBC bullets why not give them a call. The owner Brad is usually very helpful.

 

[LiveLife]

Missouri bullets ... 9mm ... 115 gr ... Plunk test with case only....perfect fit

Seating bullets deeper and deeper and deeper ... 1.135 and 1.035 ... I know that's too short.

If you tried 1.135" down to 1.035", definitely give Brad a call. He may have the bullet that will work with your barrel.

MBC RN bullets (115 gr Parabellum and 124 gr SmallBall) have shorter rounder nose with longer bullet base/bearing surface (to improve neck tension like CN/SWC). If you have barrels with short/no leade, these bullets may not work. While MBC RN loaded to 1.080" worked in KKM and Lone Wolf barrels with longer leade, in my newest Lone Wolf barrel with short leade, MBC RN bullets did not work.

However, apparently MBC has redesigned the 124 gr RN (SmallBall) Hi-Tek 2 nose profile (not sure about 115 gr Parabellum) - You can tell the new bullet by a small flat tip compared to old bullet with rounded tip. The new bullet now even works with my Lone Wolf barrel with short leade.

1.110" OAL with .378" taper crimp worked in KKM/Lone Wolf barrels with longer leade and 1.050" OAL with .378" taper crimp worked in Lone Wolf barrel with shorter leade.

.356 diameter ... Crimping between .372 and .377

That's too much taper crimp and especially with larger .356" sized bullets, using too much taper crimp could reduce neck tension (and increase bullet setback when bullet nose slams on the feed ramp) when bullet diameter is reduced by taper crimp die and brass spring back from the bullet.

Since case wall averages .011" around case mouth, I usually add .022" to the diameter of the bullet to determine my taper crimp - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225

So for .356" sized bullets, I use .378" taper crimp (.356" + .022" = .378")

 

[falmike]

Try crimping with a Lee Factory Crimp Die as a separate step after seating.

That helps smooth out the entire case if any bulges. Also, make sure you aren’t over flairing your cases before bullet seating.

I load 115 grain mbc 9mm on my RL550 without issue using a Lee FCD at the final station.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Is it possible your seating/crimp die is crimping before the bullet is seated and slightly buckling the case?

 

[glennv]

Alright your post got me thinking my crimp was the issue. I started from scratch, started seating deeper until the cartridge fit in my most commonly used 9mm pistols. Came up with 1.065" OAL. Then I worked my crimp down to .378" and everything is 100%. Thanks for all the help.

One last question, where do I safely start my charge? I'm using Titegroup and was running 4.4 gr at 1.135". Now that I'm at 1.065" Titegroup indicates the starting charge is 3.9" for LRN at 1.100".

 

[LiveLife]

Missouri cast 9mm they'll fit in my glocks and sigs with loose chambers but stick a tiny amount.

While Glocks are regarded to have looser chambers, that's not the case anymore for 40S&W and never been the case for 9mm.

For 40S&W, by Gen 3, Glock has tightened the chamber wall dimensions and chamber mouth area (for case base support) so that chamber and case base support is now comparable if not better than other factory barrels. Now, when I run across overly expanded/bulged 40S&W brass, it is always non-Glock striker mark on the primer.

For 9mm, Glock chamber wall dimension and case mouth area have remained same since Gen 1 and comparable to KKM and Lone Wolf aftermarket barrels (aftermarket/match barrels tend to have tighter dimensions than factory barrels). What has changed with Gen 5 barrel is rounded hexagonal rifling and smooth start of rifling was changed to conventional square cut land/groove rifling with typical ramped start of rifling to be compatible with lead bullets and to build chamber pressures faster.

If your finished rounds are not rubbing the chamber wall but "sticking" to the start of rifling so you can't freely spin the round, shortening the OAL to pull the nose away from the start of rifling would be the solution as long as deeper seated bullet won't bulge the case wall to rub with the chamber wall.

This was the case with MBC 124 gr RN (SmallBall) and my newest Lone Wolf barrel with very short leade as seating short down to 1.030" to clear the rifling bulged the case neck so round would stick in the chamber. The latest box of MBC Hi-Tek 2 coated 124 gr RN appears to have reshaped longer nose so loading to 1.050" would clear the rifling and not rub the chamber wall.

 

[LiveLife]

That's too much taper crimp and especially with larger .356" sized bullets ... for .356" sized bullets, I use .378" taper crimp (.356" + .022" = .378")

Is it possible your seating/crimp die is crimping before the bullet is seated and slightly buckling the case?

MBC RN loaded to 1.080" worked in KKM and Lone Wolf barrels with longer leade

If your finished rounds are not rubbing the chamber wall but "sticking" to the start of rifling so you can't freely spin the round, shortening the OAL to pull the nose away from the start of rifling would be the solution as long as deeper seated bullet won't bulge the case wall to rub with the chamber wall.

I started from scratch, started seating deeper until the cartridge fit in my most commonly used 9mm pistols. Came up with 1.065" OAL. Then I worked my crimp down to .378" and everything is 100%.

Good to hear.

Keep in mind when you are right at the edge of passing/not passing the plunk test, measure some resized brass length and use the shortest brass for determining your max/working OAL. If you use longer brass for testing and then reload with shorter brass, since 9mm headspaces on case mouth, bullet would stick out more above case mouth and may contact the rifling.

When I am determining max/working OAL, I will use shorter resized brass length and subtract .002" more to account for bullet nose profile/ogive variance as start of rifling will contact the side of the bullet, not the tip.

where do I safely start my charge? I'm using Titegroup and was running 4.4 gr at 1.135". Now that I'm at 1.065" Titegroup indicates the starting charge is 3.9" for LRN at 1.100".

When I am conducting powder work up with COL/OAL shorter than published, I will often reduce my start/max charge by .2/.3 gr depending on how much shorter I am using.

115 gr Lead RN Titegroup Dia .356" COL 1.100" Start 3.9 gr (1,075 fps) 25,800 CUP - Max 4.3 gr (1,151 fps) 30,500 CUP

So with 1.065" working OAL compared to published 1.100", I would start my powder work up at 3.7 gr.