deadin
Member
How many shots should be in a group when calculating moa?
(I know 2 shot groups don't show much other than luck....
)
(I know 2 shot groups don't show much other than luck....
)
MOA Bragging rights.
- Thread starter deadin
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Cue popcorn
I call 5 good. Some will say at least 7 out of an autoloader, others 10. There are lots of variables as you know: mechanical accuracy, load accuracy, wind/weather conditions, shooter ability, the guy next to you with a muzzle brake, etc. Good luck.
M
I call 5 good. Some will say at least 7 out of an autoloader, others 10. There are lots of variables as you know: mechanical accuracy, load accuracy, wind/weather conditions, shooter ability, the guy next to you with a muzzle brake, etc. Good luck.
M
deadin said:I know 2 shot groups don't show much other than luck....
I don't agree with that. It depends on how many 2-shot groups and how close to the point of aim the groups are. Heck, put up a target at 100 yards with 10 1" circles on it and then put one shot inside each circle. It's surprisingly challenging and it will show shooter and equipment shortcomings very quickly. It's much easier to shoot a small group than it is to hit what you're aiming at.
someguy2800
Member
To me if you’re going to claim something is an moa rifle it should be able to shoot a 5 shot moa group at will. Meaning you can take it out of the safe, set it on the bags, and shoot multiple 1 moa groups. I have several rifles that will do this, I have several that won’t.
Honestly though everyone likes shooting little groups, but even more important than that to me is if I take the gun out and shoot it any season, any temperature, how far is the first shot from point of aim? I’ve had and still have rifles that would shoot nice tidy little groups at will, but those groups weren’t always necessarily in the same place. For me shooting groups is for load development. Once I’m done with that though I’m really only interested in how well it shoots to point of aim.
Honestly though everyone likes shooting little groups, but even more important than that to me is if I take the gun out and shoot it any season, any temperature, how far is the first shot from point of aim? I’ve had and still have rifles that would shoot nice tidy little groups at will, but those groups weren’t always necessarily in the same place. For me shooting groups is for load development. Once I’m done with that though I’m really only interested in how well it shoots to point of aim.
deadin
Member
I think this comes back to the old question of accuracy vs. precision.
Precision is the ability of the firearm, load, etc. to place each shot in nearly the same place. (A grouping, regardless of where it is on the target only dependent on having the same POA for each shot)
Accuracy is the ability to take advantage of whatever precision is available. After the precision is determined, it is just a matter of adjusting the elevation and windage to move the group's POI to the desired point of aim.
Of course the actual shooter can affect this greatly. That's what sandbags and/or Ramsom rests are for. (Get the shooter out of the equation as much as possible.) It's about what the gun is capable of, not the "rifleman".
Years ago I had a Hammerli Free Pistol that came with a test target showing a 10 shot group at 50 Meters that was less than a 1/2 inch.
Could I do that? No way! (It was quite humbling.....)
Precision is the ability of the firearm, load, etc. to place each shot in nearly the same place. (A grouping, regardless of where it is on the target only dependent on having the same POA for each shot)
Accuracy is the ability to take advantage of whatever precision is available. After the precision is determined, it is just a matter of adjusting the elevation and windage to move the group's POI to the desired point of aim.
Of course the actual shooter can affect this greatly. That's what sandbags and/or Ramsom rests are for. (Get the shooter out of the equation as much as possible.) It's about what the gun is capable of, not the "rifleman".
Years ago I had a Hammerli Free Pistol that came with a test target showing a 10 shot group at 50 Meters that was less than a 1/2 inch.
Could I do that? No way! (It was quite humbling.....)
deadin
Member
.
Me too....
I always get a kick out of someone that has a target with, what I would call 15 or 20 random holes in it, but 3 of them are close to each other, so they claim a 3 shot moa group....
Kind of like hitting the gong at 1000 yards and it only took 40 shots. (I would call it more of an accident....)
As long as the number of shots are indicated anywhere between 3-10 are fine with me. 3 shot groups tell me what I need to know about a hunting rifle since I'll rarely need more than 3. If you're competing in one of the shooting sports where more shots are required then that number should be the standard. Saying 1 MOA without specifying the number of shots could be misleading.
And a single group doesn't mean anything. The best 3 shot group I've ever fired was from a 5 lb Kimber 308 at .011". It is almost one .308 hole in the target. But that was an anomaly, the rifle is almost never under 1 MOA for 3 shots. Although with loads it likes it is very close. It also isn't fair to expect a 5 lb rifle with skinny barrel to continue to do that for 5 rounds. I've had a few mountain type rifles over the years that would keep 3 well under 1". But 5 shots would often be closer to 2". I'd expect a heavy barreled target rifle to do much better for 5+ shots, but don't want, or need that for what I do. I won't be taking 5+ shots at a game animal.
I'm more interested in consistency. Taking the average of 5 groups of 3 shots is more important for me than 3 groups of 5 shots because it is a more realistic for my needs.
And a single group doesn't mean anything. The best 3 shot group I've ever fired was from a 5 lb Kimber 308 at .011". It is almost one .308 hole in the target. But that was an anomaly, the rifle is almost never under 1 MOA for 3 shots. Although with loads it likes it is very close. It also isn't fair to expect a 5 lb rifle with skinny barrel to continue to do that for 5 rounds. I've had a few mountain type rifles over the years that would keep 3 well under 1". But 5 shots would often be closer to 2". I'd expect a heavy barreled target rifle to do much better for 5+ shots, but don't want, or need that for what I do. I won't be taking 5+ shots at a game animal.
I'm more interested in consistency. Taking the average of 5 groups of 3 shots is more important for me than 3 groups of 5 shots because it is a more realistic for my needs.
Three shots for hunting rifle, M77 .270 to confirm POI/POA. If adjustment is needed then more 3 shot groups with time to cool barrel. Takes a while, but it's been a while since I needed to touch the scope knobs. Ten shots for size or to adjust scope on my .22WMR or .22LR. Coincidentally, the .22WMR and .22LR give me ten shots without a reload. 77/22 WMR 9+1 and 77/22 LR 10+1.
Nature Boy
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My objective is 20 shots inside the 10 ring (6” circle) at 600 yards
A tiny group in the 9 ring would suck
A tiny group in the 9 ring would suck
Only in my dreams.
Mine either shoot good enough that people think I'm a liar, or so bad that it gets iron sights so I have an excuse...
I definitely agree with consistent first shot accuracy. Nothing else matters for me in 99% of situations. Only occasionally so I get a chance to pull a double.
If my largest group centered on the bull is 3/4 inch then I feel safe calling a moa gun.How many shots should be in a group when calculating moa?
(I know 2 shot groups don't show much other than luck....
If I'm barely pulling 1"groups, then it might not perform when someone is there and I look like a liar.
I'd rather be a sand bagger than a liar...
I am a pro sand bagger.
Varminterror
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I honestly care less about how many shots are in the group as I do about how many groups the rifle will repeat the same group size.
Sure, shooting a sub-MOA 3 shot group is usually easier than shooting a sub-MOA 10 shot group - but not always. Sometimes stats work in your favor and you shoot the inside of a 100 shot average for those 10 shots, and sometimes it’s not, and your 3 shots are the OUTSIDE of a 100 shot average. But if you can shoot 10x 3 shot groups in a row with none over half moa, I’ll tip my hat and say the rifle is a 1/2moa rig. Don’t care if that’s an unpopular opinion, the stats are there - if a rifle is a 1moa rifle, then 10x 3 shot groups under 1/2moa just won’t happen. Shooting ONE 5 or 10 shot group at the statistical minimum for the rifle is how word records are set. It’s not reflective of how the rifle shoots with any regularity.
I generally consider, if I shoot 15 shots, most likely any flyer outside of that group will be my error, not the rifle. I can often exhibit the difference between 10 shots and 15, the 15 being larger almost always than the 10, but from 15 to 20, or even 30, my groups don’t usually grow, unless I absolutely throw one (or 5). I seem to be able to generally keep my poop in a group for 10 rounds, 15 will bring out my bad, so shooting more than 20 will just be more of the bad, and not reflect any statistical improvement for the group.
Sure, shooting a sub-MOA 3 shot group is usually easier than shooting a sub-MOA 10 shot group - but not always. Sometimes stats work in your favor and you shoot the inside of a 100 shot average for those 10 shots, and sometimes it’s not, and your 3 shots are the OUTSIDE of a 100 shot average. But if you can shoot 10x 3 shot groups in a row with none over half moa, I’ll tip my hat and say the rifle is a 1/2moa rig. Don’t care if that’s an unpopular opinion, the stats are there - if a rifle is a 1moa rifle, then 10x 3 shot groups under 1/2moa just won’t happen. Shooting ONE 5 or 10 shot group at the statistical minimum for the rifle is how word records are set. It’s not reflective of how the rifle shoots with any regularity.
I generally consider, if I shoot 15 shots, most likely any flyer outside of that group will be my error, not the rifle. I can often exhibit the difference between 10 shots and 15, the 15 being larger almost always than the 10, but from 15 to 20, or even 30, my groups don’t usually grow, unless I absolutely throw one (or 5). I seem to be able to generally keep my poop in a group for 10 rounds, 15 will bring out my bad, so shooting more than 20 will just be more of the bad, and not reflect any statistical improvement for the group.
My property doesn't go that far, so your 600 yards may as well be the moon. I'm limited to 430 and I'm happy it I can wind call a 6" plate every time. The wind destroys me.
MachIVshooter
Member
This. In the end, whether it's 10 ten shot groups, 20 five shot groups or 30 three shot groups, the average over that many rounds or more is legitimate.
For demonstrating/claiming accuracy, however, I would consider ~25 shots the minimum, generally 5 groups of five.
herrwalther
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Force of habit. 3 shot groups.
Nature Boy
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they never make me happy
BWS
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Shoot almost every day. I'm 61 and have been blasting varmints since getting a 722 in .222 when 18 y.o.
3 shot groups(1st round cold bore is EXTREMELY important to this methodology)are a "constant" here because; my main hunting rigs are sporter barrels. They get drug around,in and out of travel cases,the more miserable the weather....the better I like it. Get cleaned right often,and shot right much.
Some,and I wouldn't disagree,call it a zero check moreso than,shooting groups? But 3 rds off either some Bull's bag,a tailgate/hood,or shooting sticks..... and pretty durn quickly,Bam,work bolt....Bam,work bolt....Bam,pick up cases. Now do that every day or two at the same target dot until you can't see the hits anymore.
Just sayin,this is what it's boiled or pared down to for me. Load development is a whole nuther equation. Good luck with your project.
3 shot groups(1st round cold bore is EXTREMELY important to this methodology)are a "constant" here because; my main hunting rigs are sporter barrels. They get drug around,in and out of travel cases,the more miserable the weather....the better I like it. Get cleaned right often,and shot right much.
Some,and I wouldn't disagree,call it a zero check moreso than,shooting groups? But 3 rds off either some Bull's bag,a tailgate/hood,or shooting sticks..... and pretty durn quickly,Bam,work bolt....Bam,work bolt....Bam,pick up cases. Now do that every day or two at the same target dot until you can't see the hits anymore.
Just sayin,this is what it's boiled or pared down to for me. Load development is a whole nuther equation. Good luck with your project.
rdnktrkr
Member
When I work up a load, 5 shots ea load, so I think 5 or more. And I think POA and POI should be the same not a 1"group 1" off bullseye.
I like the idea of shooting 1 shot at different bullseyes and will have to try that for my hunting guns.
I like the idea of shooting 1 shot at different bullseyes and will have to try that for my hunting guns.
There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.
As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because they read articles all the time where the loads are at most, three shot groups. And, three shot groups are easy.
By the standards of the internet, a sub MOA group! Therefore a sub MOA rifle and sub MOA load, and sub MOA everything.
Still a good group and load, but sadly, not sub MOA anymore.
Failure, failure, failure. I am ashamed to walk the halls of my fathers because this is not a sub MOA load.
As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because they read articles all the time where the loads are at most, three shot groups. And, three shot groups are easy.
By the standards of the internet, a sub MOA group! Therefore a sub MOA rifle and sub MOA load, and sub MOA everything.
Still a good group and load, but sadly, not sub MOA anymore.
Failure, failure, failure. I am ashamed to walk the halls of my fathers because this is not a sub MOA load.
FL-NC
Member
In the army, our standard was 5. If I'm putting them all in the same hole now with ammo I paid for, I stop at 3 and call it good.
mcb
Member
5-shot group are a good compromise between statistically meaningful amounts of data and one's ability to stay focused and repeatable on target. I believe this is the reason all American Rifleman/Hunter evaluation articles are always 5 consecutive 5-shot groups for their accuracy testing. I know when the Army was recently doing the ASR (Advanced Sniper Rifle program to replace the PSR) bid process the gun would be judge on 5 consecutive 10-shot groups.
It really doesn't matter much once your at or above 4 or 5 rounds per group. Statically if you have all the data for a string of X-shot groups you should be able to predict what a Y-shot group with look like or vise-versa.
The real question do you use extreme spread or mean average radius as your bench mark?
It really doesn't matter much once your at or above 4 or 5 rounds per group. Statically if you have all the data for a string of X-shot groups you should be able to predict what a Y-shot group with look like or vise-versa.
The real question do you use extreme spread or mean average radius as your bench mark?
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Varminterror
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Something I have not explored, but often wondered, over the years, is the reasonableness of applying a Normal Distribution to statistical assessments of target shooting.
As noted in the SSUSA reprint of the American Rifleman article link above, there’s reasons to expect a skewed distribution, such applying statistical formulae for Normal Distribution stat assessments may not be pertinent.
As noted in the SSUSA reprint of the American Rifleman article link above, there’s reasons to expect a skewed distribution, such applying statistical formulae for Normal Distribution stat assessments may not be pertinent.
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