Molon Labe (mo-lone lah-veh) Not a flame.

[DFW1911]

All,

This is not intended to be a flame, so please do not interpret it that way. If it's a fight you seek, please seek elsewhere. I'm new to this forum and am impressed by the level of discourse, so I thought I'd add this to the mix, for society without discussion ceases to be a society (just my opinion):

Molon Labe.

Most of us, if not all of us, know what it means. My question(s), though, beg a different perspective: what do we / me / you know about Leonidas and / or the Spartans? I ask only in that the use of Molon Labe caught me a bit off-guard upon joining THR, since we are, in fact, quoting Leonidas.

I pass no judgment on the use of Molon Labe, I only seek opinions and insight, for when we forget to learn, we forget to challenge, and when we forget to challenge we've lost the will to learn (again, just my opinion). I would hope, however, when we quote someone we understand their background...Leonidas was a Spartan, and the Spartans were, well, you fill in the gaps.

BTW: We should not overlook the Thespia (Thespians) as we investigate Thermopylea.

I look forward to a civil and pleasant discourse on this subject. I reinforce my opinion that this conversation remain beneficial to all.

Take care and be safe,
DFW1911

 

[strambo]

http://wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/SPARTA.HTM
Good page on the Spartan history and traditions. Like any civilization from that time period, there is a lot to despise (slavery, infanticide of the weak) but also much that was good. On the balance, based on that page, I wouldn't say they were worse than their neighbors...just different. It opens up saying much of the Spartan history was recorded by the Athenians, which were their rivals. Hardly a non-biased source!

Anyhoo, I don't mind associating with that quote, the sentiment is good no matter who says it.

 

[Byron Quick]

Adoption of a person's quote in a particular situation does not imply adoption of that person's entire world view, no matter how good or how bad that person's worldview may be. Were you under the impression it did?

I can quote Jesus, doing so doesn't mean I'm a saint. I can quote Jenghiz Khan, doing so doesn't mean I'm a Mongol or even a wannabe Mongol.

Molon labe has meaning to us today due to striking a chord in members of the gun culture due to our situation today. Its adoption does not imply that we endorse Spartan vices as well as Spartan virtues.

 

[strambo]

Very well put Byron. I'm glad the thread was started as it gave me a good opportunity to learn more about the history, which I should have looked into before in more depth anyway.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

I would add to what Byron said so well.
Men are men. There are no pure evil (I guess Al Quedea comes as close as we will likely see in our lifetime). There are no pure good. Every person has good in them, and usually does some bad in their life. Societies are a lot like that as well. If we embrace the good and reject the bad, that is good.

 

[strambo]

Well, the other Greek city states may have hated and feared those "un civilized, red-neck, gun-nut" Spartans, but who did they all turn to to save them in a crisis?

 

[BigG]

This book has one of the better descriptions of the Persian Wars. Persia and the Greeks: Defense of the West

 

[TexasRifleman]

Good stuff so far. Also remember that we here at THR are not the first folks to use Molon Labe as a symbol of gun rights.

I'll refer you all to the Gonzales flag as it's commonly known, displayed in various forms around Texas circa 1835. It's most famous use was in San Antonio preceding the Battle of the Alamo. Although not using the Greek form, the translation stands, as well as the meaning.

When the Mexican Army "asked" the Texans to surrender their weapons, the response was clearly "Molon Labe".

In late September, 1835, Colonel Ugartechea, the commander of the Mexican garrison at San Antonio, sent a few men to Gonzales to recover a cannon that had been loaned to the town to fight off occasional Indian attacks. The citizens of Gonzales realized that the intent of the move was to disarm possible rebels, and so the request was denied.

Ugartechea then sent dragoons under Captain Francisco Castaneda to demand the cannon unconditionally. As word of the conflict spread, the Texan force grew to over 200 armed men and the town was fortified. The cannon was mounted on a wagon, and blacksmiths hammered iron scrap and chains inth the cannonballs.

Two ladies of the town, Cynthia Burns and Evaline DeWitt, painted a flag on cotton cloth, depicting the cannon, the lone star of Texas and a clear challenge to the enemy.

The Mexican troops moved north to ford the river and approach Gonzales. The Texans decided that they had to attack before Mexican reinforcements arrived. They crossed the river at dusk, formed their battle lines at night and surprised the Mexicans at dawn on October 2nd.

The battle that followed was brief; when the Texans opened fire, the Mexicans withdrew, abandoning their supplies. Stephen F. Austin joined the army as commander on October 10th, and the other Texans, under the command of James Collingsworth, took the Goliad the next day. On October 12th, the march on San Antonio began.

 

[DFW1911]

Molon Labe replies

All,

Good conversation so far and thanks for your input. Personally, I take no offense to the use of Molon Labe as I believe time has given our cause a great phrase AND I can intelligently debate its use.

No, Byron, I do not believe that quoting someone means we / you / I subsribe to their specific ideologies; I do think, however, it behooves one to understand the ideologies of people we quote. Regarding the use of Molon Labe, I believe the context of the phrase is what's important, maybe even more so than the source.

Why I questioned the use of the phrase was to stimulate this conversation and to ensure those who use "Molon Labe" understand its current and historical meanings; it was not, nor is it currently, verbiage to be taken lightly.

Thanks for contributing to an interesting dialogue.

Regards,
DFW1911

 

[Jim March]

The events at Thermopylae weren't just about the Spartans, or about the Greeks who were present. Likewise discussing Spartan culture isn't really significant at all, in my view.

What they accomplished was the salvation of the seeds of free Republican government. Granted, it wasn't yet very developed at that point but we KNOW how it developed later.

We also know that the Persian system of government was an absolute dictatorship utterly lacking in personal freedom. It contained all the worst elements of governmental concepts: theocracy, dictatorship, mass enslavement, wars of conquest far beyond what the Greeks practiced, violent religions, the divine right of kings, ALL that crap - in an aggressive, world-conquering form.

It needed to be stopped when and where the Greeks stopped it, and they couldn't have done so if the Spartans and Thebians hadn't slowed 'em down for that week.

Leonidas and company may have literally saved the world, or at least preserved the seeds of better ideas in government than had ever been seen before. Damned fragile seeds at that, as the Spartans themselves admittedly weren't all THAT much better as a society than most of that era.

They were a damned sight better than the Persians though.

No soldier anywhere in world history that I'm aware of ever fought or died for a better cause. If any did I'd like to hear of it...only the wars against Germany and Japan in WW2 were as morally clear-cut.

 

[another okie]

the ballot box
the soap box
the jury box
the cartridge box

 

[LaEscopeta]

If I remember correctly (and I’m remembering that way less and less now-a-days) there is only one historian who claimed the Spartan King replied “Molon Labe” before the battle of Thermopylae, to the Persian King’s offer/demand the Greeks give up their arms, and that historian was writing many years after the event, citing no sources. No Persian accounts mention this and no other Greek account, even several written much closer to the date of the battle. All later references to the phase go back to that one historian. So as famous and inspiring a phase molon labe is, it is possible it was never spoken the way it is claimed to have been.

 

[Hemicuda]

I have read, and I understand the history of Molon Labe... even so, I see it in THIS context as a RALLY CRY for those of us in the gun culture who are willing to fight the good fight to keep our rights, and fight for the ones already taken...

 

[Evil Monkey]

"COME AND GET THEM!"

Doesn't sound as serious as...

"GET SOME!!!!!!!!"

 

[DFW1911]

All,

I'm glad I posted: I'm learning as we go. Thanks for that.

Monkey, you're just Evil...and pretty D__N funny !

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowledge.

DFW1911

 

[strambo]

Well, even if the phrase wasn't uttered, there was no doubt some reply to the call to lay down arms and be spared or face certain annihilation. For the 300 Spartans and very few others who chose to make a stand while the rest of the army retreated...their actions were "MOLON LABE" no matter what the verbal reply may, or may not, have been.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

I guess we could modernize it to just one word, "Nuts."
That used by Maj. Gen. Anthony C. McAuliffe's to a German surrender ultimatum at the battle of the bulge.
Not quite the same meaning, but certainly the same spirit, and more succinct.

 

[Molon Labe]

You guys talking about me, again?

 

[Molon Labe]

I have read, and I understand the history of Molon Labe

You don't know the half of it! Did I tell you about the time my sister locked me out of the house? I was only 8 years old. You see, I had just got home from school, and...

 

[ilbob]

only the wars against Germany and Japan in WW2 were as morally clear-cut.

How about the war on communism? Communism was certainly far more evil than Nazism ever was.