More Holy Grails from the R.I.A. Museum

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tark

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Inventory time again! Another trip behind the glass, where I get to hold some of the rarest firearms on earth Let's start with the rarest Krag carbine in in existence. Actually, it is the rarest Krag in existence, period! The 1892 Carbine' serial number 1015. The Army made two prototypes, some say three. It is believed that this was the second one built. This is the only one known to exist. A complete description may be found on page 60 of the excellent book."The Krag Rifle Story", by Mallory and Olsen. I held many rare guns today and I will deal with them one at a time
 

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And then there was this Winchester Prototype. The M-1 Carbine almost looked like this. It is very light. It employed a 20 round magazine and had a full-auto selector switch at the same place as an M-2 Carbine does. I was surprised to see it has a fluted barrel. The wooden handguard is ventilated. The front sight looks rather fragile
 

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Next up is a 1924 Garand, primer actuated rifle. It is a .30 caliber. (30-06) Don't even ask....I have no idea how on the thing worked!!! It looks to be a bit awkward but it feels comfortable and points naturally except for one thing....It weighs ten pounds if it weighs an OUNCE. It might even be closer to eleven! That rear sight looks interesting, almost like a Lyman.
 

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Ever see an M-14 Carbine? Well, now you have! Next up is a T-44E6 prototype, serial # 20. It failed in the trials. Every attempt was made to lighten the rifle The flash suppressor was shortened and the now useless bayonet lug removed. The barrel was shortened and made thinner. It is 20". The stock was shortened and an aluminum butt plate was installed. They even removed the protective wings from the rear sight! They succeeded in getting the weight down, the gun weighs 7 1/2 pounds, unloaded.
 

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Next up is a 1924 Garand, primer actuated rifle. It is a .30 caliber. (30-06) Don't even ask....I have no idea how on the thing worked!!! It looks to be a bit awkward but it feels comfortable and points naturally except for one thing....It weighs ten pounds if it weighs an OUNCE. It might even be closer to eleven! That rear sight looks interesting, almost like a Lyman.
Later version, but it shows the innards pretty nicely.



And, you see Lyman rear sight on a number of first prototypes, they were relatively inexpensive, easily adapted to fit and accurate
 
Inventory time again! Another trip behind the glass, where I get to hold some of the rarest firearms on earth Let's start with the rarest Krag carbine in in existence. Actually, it is the rarest Krag in existence, period! The 1892 Carbine' serial number 1015. The Army made two prototypes, some say three. It is believed that this was the second one built. This is the only one known to exist. A complete description may be found on page 60 of the excellent book."The Krag Rifle Story", by Mallory and Olsen. I held many rare guns today and I will deal with them one at a time
Well....it may have been the rarest produced, but IIRC, there are NO verified Philippine Constabulary Krag Carbines left in existence.....:D Come to think of it, that would make the '92 the rarest STILL in existence, lol.

Hatcher talks about the primer operated rifles in his notebook. The theory was that the primer was SUPPOSED to blow itself out of the case and begin the cycling process!!!:what::eek:

Thanks for sharing, Tark- very cool stuff!
 
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I am guessing that RIA means Rock Island Arsenal, in Illinois. Is that right?
Yes, that is correct. The Arsenal is a 946 acre island situated between Iowa and Illinois. In addition to the Museum, it has Memorial Field, which contains tanks, guns, howitzers ond various weapons saystems. It is shown on our facebook page.

We also have one of the 20 atomic cannons manufactured in the fifties.
 
tark

Extremely cool stuff! As a Krag fan I especially love the Model 1892 Carbine! Thanks for the look at these rare treasures!
 
Thank you for posting all that......... fascinating indeed; and you actually get to hold some extremely rare pieces of history. I'd be thrilled just to see them on display behind the glass. If I'm ever in the area that place will be on my "must see" list.
 
Later version, but it shows the innards pretty nicely.



And, you see Lyman rear sight on a number of first prototypes, they were relatively inexpensive, easily adapted to fit and accurate


I've never watched that video. That's an amazing rifle. Striker fired. It's interesting to note the pitting at the muzzle. Those old corrosive primers were bad.
 
Good piece. Ian points out that it was fired enough, fast enough, to charcoal the stock inletting.

Interesting point, the 1920 primer actuated rifle had a 20 round box magazine, probably from a BAR. Then he went back to a Mauser pattern five shot stripper clip setup, and ended with packet loading as likely stimulated by Pedersen design. Can't have the troops wasting ammo with them newfangled automatics. Especially with resupply via mule.
 
Good piece. Ian points out that it was fired enough, fast enough, to charcoal the stock inletting.

Interesting point, the 1920 primer actuated rifle had a 20 round box magazine, probably from a BAR. Then he went back to a Mauser pattern five shot stripper clip setup, and ended with packet loading as likely stimulated by Pedersen design. Can't have the troops wasting ammo with them newfangled automatics. Especially with resupply via mule.

I've heard it was Big Army that didn't want box mags on the Garand. That IMHO was a big mistake, as was the switch from .276 Pedersen to .30-06.
 
No doubt.
The packet loading system was a compromise that got us by for a while.

The virtues of the .276 Pedersen have been debated a lot.
While we live in the era of the Intermediate Cartridge, things were different back then. Consider that the Japanese and Italians adopted LARGER infantry rifles after they were already at war. Of course this stuck the Japanese with two calibers and the Italians backed off the project.

WWI leftover ammo was not an acceptable excuse for staying with .30, though. By the time of the automatic rifle trials, it was at least 15 years old and a lot of it was crap anyhow. Herbert McBride mentioned that for .303. He wanted Winchester ammo for his sniping, hurry up wartime production by minor contractors "operated by girls" was of lower, sometimes quite low quality.
 
No doubt.
The packet loading system was a compromise that got us by for a while.

The virtues of the .276 Pedersen have been debated a lot.
While we live in the era of the Intermediate Cartridge, things were different back then. Consider that the Japanese and Italians adopted LARGER infantry rifles after they were already at war. Of course this stuck the Japanese with two calibers and the Italians backed off the project.

WWI leftover ammo was not an acceptable excuse for staying with .30, though. By the time of the automatic rifle trials, it was at least 15 years old and a lot of it was crap anyhow. Herbert McBride mentioned that for .303. He wanted Winchester ammo for his sniping, hurry up wartime production by minor contractors "operated by girls" was of lower, sometimes quite low quality.
By 1936 all war stocks from 1918 had been, or nearly were, exhausted. MG Hatcher noted which year all M1906 ammunition was exhausted and the switch to M1 Ball was instituted in his book.

But . . . .

The M1918 Squad Automatic Rifle still used .30-06.

The M1919 Medium Machine Gun still used .30-06.

The M1917 Heavy Machine Gun still used .30-06.

In 1936 the Army was expecting a full blown war to break out with Japan within a few years. Given the military budget during the New Deal era the likelihood of those three being replaced with suitable weapons in "a few years" was highly unlikely. After all, the semi-automatic rifle, the least technically risky item, had taken 15 years to get to the point of full rate production (well sort of full rate production).

The reasoning is more strategic level logistics, than simple stock-on-hand, or unit level logistics.
 
Hey mods, can you create an new museum thread with tales from the RIA crypt with cryptkeeper Tark as mod. That would be a fascinating picture record of a fabulous museum that many of us may never get to visit. Now, if we can just get THR people to infiltrate Springfield Armory museum and the NRA's museum to contribute as well.
 
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