Berger.Fan222
Member
Certainly, one might envision cases where it is less than ideal, but what is the drawback of the "local hotshots" are known commodities: IDPA, USPSA, SCSA Masters (or above)?
"Most accurate" again in IDPA... help me speed up
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Certainly, one might envision cases where it is less than ideal, but what is the drawback of the "local hotshots" are known commodities: IDPA, USPSA, SCSA Masters (or above)?
OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
Well today was my first match since starting my new attempts to speed up. I placed third overall, second in SSP (match winner shot SSP, and is a master). I was still 30 or something seconds back after PD, but I was happy that my raw time was closer to the winner. He shot only 8 points down for the match to my 30 however. LOL
In a couple stages I actually had a quicker raw time, but he would have 3 PD to my 13, so after adding those he would win the stage. It was uncomfortable for me to shoot faster and rack up all the PD but hopefully my accuracy under speed stress will improve. I'm happy that the raw times were close at least. Now I just need to somehow be super accurate AND fast. hmmmmm
In a couple stages I actually had a quicker raw time, but he would have 3 PD to my 13, so after adding those he would win the stage. It was uncomfortable for me to shoot faster and rack up all the PD but hopefully my accuracy under speed stress will improve. I'm happy that the raw times were close at least. Now I just need to somehow be super accurate AND fast. hmmmmm
J-Bar
Member
OK you have had 3 pages of advice from experienced IDPA shooters and you are still struggling; so here is the opinion from one who does not shoot IDPA. I play the cowboy action game, very much a speed game at the top levels. Our targets are close and large at most competitions. Typically we do not cover as much ground moving between shooting positions, but we have to use four different firearms at each stage, so our transitions are a significant part of our total times.
You are "sight picture" bound. So eliminate the sight picture for a few practice sessions. You do this my eliminating the targets. Totally. Go out a few times and run the course without targets on the stands. See how fast you can shoot the required number of rounds at each position. Rip the shots as quickly as you can into the berm at each shooting station. Run, or in your case lumber, as quickly as you can from one shooting position to another. Record your times (you do own a timer, don't you?) Do this until you are just not capable of pulling the trigger any faster, and not capable of moving from one position to another any faster. You will probably have to do this several times in multiple visits to the range. Then you can use this information to make some decisions.
Could you possibly beat everyone else with your fastest times if those practice shots had been hits? If so, you need to practice going fast more than you already have. If your best "non-target" times cannot beat the best shooters, then you may have unrealistic expectations. This absolutely does NOT mean you should quit competition. It just means that you should concentrate on what you do best, accurate shooting, and rejoice in the good results you have been achieving.
Good luck.
You are "sight picture" bound. So eliminate the sight picture for a few practice sessions. You do this my eliminating the targets. Totally. Go out a few times and run the course without targets on the stands. See how fast you can shoot the required number of rounds at each position. Rip the shots as quickly as you can into the berm at each shooting station. Run, or in your case lumber, as quickly as you can from one shooting position to another. Record your times (you do own a timer, don't you?) Do this until you are just not capable of pulling the trigger any faster, and not capable of moving from one position to another any faster. You will probably have to do this several times in multiple visits to the range. Then you can use this information to make some decisions.
Could you possibly beat everyone else with your fastest times if those practice shots had been hits? If so, you need to practice going fast more than you already have. If your best "non-target" times cannot beat the best shooters, then you may have unrealistic expectations. This absolutely does NOT mean you should quit competition. It just means that you should concentrate on what you do best, accurate shooting, and rejoice in the good results you have been achieving.
Good luck.
Hokie_PhD
Member
Congrats on the improvement.
Just keep working to improve.
Sounds like you’re doing well, improving and having fun. To me that sounds like a win.
What do I know, but ...
Put up two targets 7 yards away and 2-3 yards apart. Click your timer with a random start. On the buzzer, draw, put two bullets in one target and two bullets in the second target.
How fast to your first shot?
How fast to your second shot?
How fast to your next shot in the second target.
Now you know if you need to work on draw, recoil shooting, moving to the next target.
Next, what costs you time? Aiming? When do you aim and when do you point shoot. What eye do you use? Left? Right? Both? Are you looking at your front sight or the target. How sturdy and repeatable is your grip? Where do you miss consistently? Do you need a bigger grip?
Now dry fire every day with your laser.
Put up two targets 7 yards away and 2-3 yards apart. Click your timer with a random start. On the buzzer, draw, put two bullets in one target and two bullets in the second target.
How fast to your first shot?
How fast to your second shot?
How fast to your next shot in the second target.
Now you know if you need to work on draw, recoil shooting, moving to the next target.
Next, what costs you time? Aiming? When do you aim and when do you point shoot. What eye do you use? Left? Right? Both? Are you looking at your front sight or the target. How sturdy and repeatable is your grip? Where do you miss consistently? Do you need a bigger grip?
Now dry fire every day with your laser.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
This might be helpful if I knew what was the "correct" answer to all your questions. I don't.
Than the more important question is, "Why don't you have a timer?"
You'll never get much better without regular use of a timer
From concealment, anything under 1.5 sec for a draw is doing pretty well. Splits and transitions should both be under .25 at that distance. Splits could be even faster than that but with IDPAs point system it's not worth going crazy on the splits when one point down kills you so bad.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
Because I'm poor.
thomas15
Member
I think there are timer apps for a smart phone.
Not sure if you have covered this yet but are you following a specific dry fire and/or practice drill program?
Not sure if you have covered this yet but are you following a specific dry fire and/or practice drill program?
Regardless of your preferred platform, there is a Shot Timer App available.
Dryfire practice is free
1k, congratulations on doing what you set out to do: go faster. For many, many shooters, getting faster requires pushing the speed until things break. You're trying to speed up what feels like a "normal" amount of time to do certain things. That's going to involve outrunning your perception/skill limitations from time to time. Someone lifting weights wouldn't expect to get stronger very fast if they never hit muscle fatigue and/or soreness the day after a workout.
For people who get to practice a lot, with lots of live fire on a range where they can setup multiple targets/move etc. (i.e., beyond square ranges), they can do almost all their pushing/breaking in practice. For people who don't have the ability to do a lot of that kind of practice, growth just about has to occur during matches.
That said, if you're not able to do serious practice (which does require some kind of timer), and you're only shooting about a match a month, it might take a while! You will have to do a lot of dryfire (which you should do anyway) WITH a timer. As others have noted, free timer apps for your phone exist that are perfectly sufficient to give you randomized-delay beeps and par time 2nd beeps. That's what you'd use for dryfire.
For people who get to practice a lot, with lots of live fire on a range where they can setup multiple targets/move etc. (i.e., beyond square ranges), they can do almost all their pushing/breaking in practice. For people who don't have the ability to do a lot of that kind of practice, growth just about has to occur during matches.
That said, if you're not able to do serious practice (which does require some kind of timer), and you're only shooting about a match a month, it might take a while! You will have to do a lot of dryfire (which you should do anyway) WITH a timer. As others have noted, free timer apps for your phone exist that are perfectly sufficient to give you randomized-delay beeps and par time 2nd beeps. That's what you'd use for dryfire.
OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
Report: IDPA local match yesterday. Placed 3rd of 16 overall SSP, 6th of 40ish total, first in SSP Expert. I was able to shoot in the same squad as the guy who wins everything. It was good to see exactly where I'm losing time. Reloads, movement, stage planning. He's a gamer (within the rules) and due to efficient interpretation of the stages he was 30 seconds ahead of me after 2 stages. I screwed up with assumptions in my reading of the stages and also had a couple of light strikes and failures to lock back but it was an eye opener. On a couple stages I was a bit ahead or within a second of his times, but at the end of the match he was 50 seconds ahead.
However, this is the most telling. I was 9 points down at the end, and he was 8. So not only was he way faster, but also more accurate.
I kept feeling my mental block against going "too fast" and it obviously cost a lot of time. I have started shooting Bill Drills and am saving for a shot timer. I'll keep working on it.
In other news the new 5x5 classifier SEEMS easier but I still didn't break into Master, with a 20.60 final score with one point down. Fast guy shot 18 something final with one point down.
However, this is the most telling. I was 9 points down at the end, and he was 8. So not only was he way faster, but also more accurate.
I kept feeling my mental block against going "too fast" and it obviously cost a lot of time. I have started shooting Bill Drills and am saving for a shot timer. I'll keep working on it.
In other news the new 5x5 classifier SEEMS easier but I still didn't break into Master, with a 20.60 final score with one point down. Fast guy shot 18 something final with one point down.
LiveLife
Member
Many match shooters (including me) reach plateau or wall where significant improvement in speed and accuracy aren't achieved despite great efforts made by the shooters.
When we expressed our frustration to top regional USPSA shooters, they essentially told us we were doing the same thing over and over expecting different outcome. Yes, we were doing the same thing slightly faster inconsistently so significant and consistent improvement were never going to happen.
What they told us instead was to focus away from what we were doing at the local club and instead focus on top regional shooters and what they were doing right. What I found from them were quite revealing:
- While I struggled with basics of shooting (stance, draw, grip, aim, trigger) as separate events, they treated them as a single event - So "beep" to "bang" was one fast movement without any pause
- While I engaged the groups of targets separately, they engaged them singularly - tap tap pause tap tap pause tap tap pause vs tap tap tap tap tap tap without pause
- While I focused on the front sight flash hoping to hit A zone (sight fixation - see next post how to address sight fixation), they saw PAST the front sight and made holes appear anywhere on the target at will - This was probably my biggest realization where speed AND accuracy can significantly improve (which led to honing my point shooting skills)
- While I slowed way down to engage distant targets, they shot them just as fast (see post #94)
Yes, it's a game of "scoring". Rob points out in this video "You have to be fast enough to matter" for competition shooting and "Shooting accurately enough, faster is better than shooting extremely accurate, slow" and negates many myths about accuracy vs speed. And for USPSA scoring, that will always be the case.
And I learned shooting fast accurately (action pistol) was different than shooting slow accurately (bullseye match shooting). At 4:00 minute mark of video, Rob talks about the difference where action pistol shooting accurate and fast is "pulling the trigger without moving the gun"
At 1:35 minute mark of video, Rob demonstrates "gun control" to shoot fast without moving the gun - Hold unto the gun tight and resist its movement
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LiveLife
Member
You are suffering from "sight fixation" and this video addresses the solution.
At 1:25 minute mark of video, shooting at the target without using the front sight while EYES CLOSED is demonstrated.
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LiveLife
Member
Rob demonstrates in this video, "reaction time" between top regional shooters and average club shooters is about same (less than 2/10 of second). It's our brain that's keeping us from shooting fast.
3:35 minute mark of video - Fundamental technique of "jerking" the trigger without moving the gun.
5:00 minute mark of video - At what point do we transition from perfect sight alignment to fast reaction time? To the point of failure.
3:35 minute mark of video - Fundamental technique of "jerking" the trigger without moving the gun.
5:00 minute mark of video - At what point do we transition from perfect sight alignment to fast reaction time? To the point of failure.
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LiveLife
Member
Try this drill to progress forward:
- Remove or cover up the front sight
- Place a blank target at 5-7 yards with a dot in the center (I use a bingo dauber)
- While focusing on the dot, draw and fire
- Make the necessary adjustment at the shoulders (vertical adjustment) and waist (horizontal adjustment) so you can draw and fire FAST consistently at/around the dot repeatedly
- Once you mastered with one dot, place two dots side by side and repeat
- Once you mastered with two dots, place four dots
- Now place dots anywhere on the target and make holes (double taps) appear AT WILL
- Replace front sight and see "past" the front sight and increase distance to target - Now you should be able to shoot accurately AND super fast and KNOW holes will appear where you intended.
Ultimately, you don't "compete" with others but compete with yourself. If others decline, they will make you look better but in actuality, you are not improving.
I believe focus should be made so you master all of YOUR shooting basics skills (as identified by video of your shooting) so you can CONSISTENTLY shoot faster. To me as long as I am improving, it doesn't matter what other shooters do.
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LiveLife
Member
Are you waiting to "see" the result of your shot before transitioning to the next target?
This is core of "tap tap pause tap tap pause" vs "tap tap tap tap" without pause I posted in post #91.
At 0:20 second mark of video, Rob demonstrates "pause" to see the hole before transitioning to the next target. Rob wants you to "leave" the target as soon as you fire and transition to the next target without seeing the hole and demonstrates this at 0:40 second mark of video.
Master the drill posted on post #94 and you will KNOW your shots hit the intended part of the target without waiting to see the "holes".
This is core of "tap tap pause tap tap pause" vs "tap tap tap tap" without pause I posted in post #91.
At 0:20 second mark of video, Rob demonstrates "pause" to see the hole before transitioning to the next target. Rob wants you to "leave" the target as soon as you fire and transition to the next target without seeing the hole and demonstrates this at 0:40 second mark of video.
Master the drill posted on post #94 and you will KNOW your shots hit the intended part of the target without waiting to see the "holes".
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LiveLife
Member
If you are not doing this, try this to better "steady" your pistol to shoot faster and accurate - Push with the shooting hand (palm) and pull with the support hand (fingers) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/recoil-and-support-hand.631429/#post-7802631
To test the steadiness of the grip, dry fire while watching the front sight as hammer/striker is released. (Rob uses a spent case on top of the slide on next post but I prefer to watch the front sight to detect smaller movement of front sight which can also show if you are pulling/pushing the trigger)
Did the front sight move? If yes, adjust the grip (push with shooting hand palm and pull with support hand fingers while relaxing the shooting finger) until front sight does not move. (If front sight continues to move, you may need a trigger job)
This will help you achieve Rob's "jerking the trigger without moving the gun".
At 1:55 minute mark of video, Rob demonstrates this to steady the pistol for faster accurate shots.
At 0:55 second mark of video, dry firing "fast" without moving the front sight
To test the steadiness of the grip, dry fire while watching the front sight as hammer/striker is released. (Rob uses a spent case on top of the slide on next post but I prefer to watch the front sight to detect smaller movement of front sight which can also show if you are pulling/pushing the trigger)
Did the front sight move? If yes, adjust the grip (push with shooting hand palm and pull with support hand fingers while relaxing the shooting finger) until front sight does not move. (If front sight continues to move, you may need a trigger job)
This will help you achieve Rob's "jerking the trigger without moving the gun".
At 1:55 minute mark of video, Rob demonstrates this to steady the pistol for faster accurate shots.
At 0:55 second mark of video, dry firing "fast" without moving the front sight
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LiveLife
Member
More detailed video on dry fire / trigger pull without moving the gun
Now doing it faster
Now doing it faster
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Capt.Roll
Member
Being a new shooter to IDPA, lots of good information to work with in hopes of becoming faster. Right now, just to become "average" within the club I belong to, I need to drop 8 - 10 seconds per stage. I'm pretty mechanical right now trying to make sure I "play by the rules" (muzzle down range, finger out of the trigger guard, procedure errors, slicing the pie correctly, target priority, etc.) so I think I'll drop time once running a stage becomes more fluid.
But looking at my score below (I'm #15, yes I know I'm not very good), it seems obvious that I'm taking to much time to acquire the first target and make the second or third follow up shot. Repeat for the remaining targets in the stage and then for the match. My PD is pretty good but I think that indicates the excessive time to engage each target. Of my 17 PD, 12 came on one stage. There were two moving targets that had visibility for about three seconds each; I probably didn't even hit them.
I know I don't have my pistol up and ready to shoot as I move/work the stage and I tend to "confirm the hole in the paper" for each shot versus trusting the shot lands where I had my sight aligned. I think working to improve these two things will immediately help me lower my stage times. Then the "train fast to get fast" makes sense as well. Looks like a timer is in my future.
But looking at my score below (I'm #15, yes I know I'm not very good), it seems obvious that I'm taking to much time to acquire the first target and make the second or third follow up shot. Repeat for the remaining targets in the stage and then for the match. My PD is pretty good but I think that indicates the excessive time to engage each target. Of my 17 PD, 12 came on one stage. There were two moving targets that had visibility for about three seconds each; I probably didn't even hit them.
I know I don't have my pistol up and ready to shoot as I move/work the stage and I tend to "confirm the hole in the paper" for each shot versus trusting the shot lands where I had my sight aligned. I think working to improve these two things will immediately help me lower my stage times. Then the "train fast to get fast" makes sense as well. Looks like a timer is in my future.
LiveLife
Member
Shaving more time - Shooting on the move.
Unless you are bound by stage rule (must engage all targets from a box), if you determine you must "move" to engage different targets/groups of target during your stage walk through, then instead of being stationary while engaging the targets (then moving), learning to "shoot while on the move" could shave more time off each stage.
Use of balance point while shooting on the move/moving between targets
Unless you are bound by stage rule (must engage all targets from a box), if you determine you must "move" to engage different targets/groups of target during your stage walk through, then instead of being stationary while engaging the targets (then moving), learning to "shoot while on the move" could shave more time off each stage.
Use of balance point while shooting on the move/moving between targets
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OP
OP
1KPerDay
Member
Lots of great info. Thanks so much!
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