"Most accurate" again in IDPA... help me speed up

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It will take time but keep at it. Yes your dry fire times will be better than live fire and live fire will be better than matches. However you should see bursts of improvement and details that you now think about will become automatic. If you stay the course there will come a day when all of a sudden things start going right and they next thing you know other shooters, some that currently are scoring better than you, will start asking you for advice.
 
Tried Travis Haley's drill above. 5 felt like an eternity. 4, 3, and 2 were good and I got to where I was dropping the hammer right on the second beep. 1 is still out of my skill level. I can get the timing right but my sight picture and/or grip are not 100%.
 
but my sight picture and/or grip are not 100%.
Then you're not doing something right at the slower speeds...go back to 5 seconds. It sounds like you're just trying to hit the speed markers. That isn't meant to be the focus of the drill.

At 5 seconds, everything should be perfect. You should feel everything (contact, grip pressure, lifting, rotating, contacting the other hand, hand pressure, trigger contact/prep), see everything (sights coming into your line of sight, aligning, on target), as perfect during that draw. When everything is perfect, it doesn't feel like an eternity...it should feel very natural; just slowed down because you're not in a hurry.

When you start shortening the times, anytime you feel like you are hurrying, you need to go back to a slower time
 
Yeah. From 5 down to 2 that's possible. Your logic suggests that there should not be a physical limit of how fast it can be done, as long as you do everything perfect at 5, etc.

That isn't the case. Haley's limit is around .7. My limit is currently about 1.2.

At 5 do I still move my hands to the gun and weak hand index quickly or do I do that motion slowly as well? I don't see the point in doing THAT motion slowly.
 
I think there's some utility in occassionally doing the slow-motion (or, better, no-time-pressure/awareness) thing to sort out little mechanical inconsistencies. But I don't think it's useful for most people when they're trying to go faster.

I think working down in time is a good idea, but I think it makes sense to start with a par time of your current, solid, guarantee-a-first-shot-A pace. Do a couple of draws at that pace, then knock 0.1 off the par time. Do 10 or so at that pace, then knock off another .1. Eventually, you'll get to the point where you cannot keep up, or cannot reasonably see the sights before the timer sounds. Keep trying, and keep pushing the time down, whether you're keeping up or not. I usually chase it down to 0.6 - not that I can do a 0.6 draw, that's just how short a par time I'm chasing at the end.

OK, now set the par time back to 1.0, or another time that previously felt really, really hard to hit. What I suspect you will find is that 1.0 seconds now feels like an eternity and you are just staring a hole in your front sight by the time the buzzer sounds. Once you get "used" to working and thinking and perceiving at sub 0.9 paces - even if you're not really succeeding at those paces - then you realize that 1 second is plenty of time to get everything done.

Now, of course, this improvement, like most improvements, is mostly transient. You'll carry over a small fraction of your improvement to your next match. But if you pile up those small fractions often enough and long enough, you can make big differences.

As you're working through these draws, shift your attention around to different parts of the "stroke." Here are some observations about myself (which may or may not apply to you, but probably do, because I'm not that special) that I've made over time doing this drill:
  • Different phases of the motion have different levels of trade-off between max-speed and control.
    • Getting your right hand to the gun and your left hand to your centerline - very, very little tradeoff between speed and control. Rip your hands to the gun/centerline as fast as you can. Think of the handspeed you'd use for a game of slapjack (stupid hand-slapping game)... literally as quick as you can move.
    • Getting the grip in the holster - some tradeoff here. Try to work through exactly what the order and location of contact points are between you and the gun (e.g., center of web centers beavertail first, then X, then Y)... if those are consistent, chances of a fouled-up grip go down, and you may be able to build the RH grip a little faster.
    • Gun from holster to LH. Some tradeoff here, but you've got to accelerate the gun from a standstill. This needs some energy in it.
    • Gun from hands-together to ready to shoot. Serious tradeoff here. Excess force in this phase will cause the gun to bounce around a lot when you run out of arms and it stops. I feel like the last foot of horizontal movement is "coasting" with nothing beyond the inertia of the gun (which I've been moving pretty hard/fast prior to this point) carrying it out to the firing position.
  • My left hand is the drag as I get the speed faster. If I'm focused on the gun or my right hand, then my left hand will slightly lag, and will slow everything down. When I'm drilling in the 0.8 range and below, I really have to think about my left hand to have any prayer of staying with the beep.
  • As Ben Stoeger says (paraphrasing), "if you're moving something other than your arms, you should stop moving that thing."
  • Experiment a little with elbow path consciousness. The Ron Avery video where he gave the imagery of a string attached to the back of your elbows being jerked upward at the start of the draw was helpful to me in speeding up the first part of the draw. I personally find a more straight-back/up and forward elbow path is more efficient for me than chicken-winging my elbows out to the side.... I like to keep things "on plane" as much as possible. (Perhaps a carryover fixation from my golf days.)
 
YES! THIS.
That 5 second drill is silly for anyone other than a complete beginner. What you described is perfect though. If you do that every day for 2 weeks I guarantee you will see results that will astonish you.
 
I think there's some utility in occassionally doing the slow-motion (or, better, no-time-pressure/awareness) thing to sort out little mechanical inconsistencies. But I don't think it's useful for most people when they're trying to go faster.

I think working down in time is a good idea, but I think it makes sense to start with a par time of your current, solid, guarantee-a-first-shot-A pace. Do a couple of draws at that pace, then knock 0.1 off the par time. Do 10 or so at that pace, then knock off another .1. Eventually, you'll get to the point where you cannot keep up, or cannot reasonably see the sights before the timer sounds. Keep trying, and keep pushing the time down, whether you're keeping up or not. I usually chase it down to 0.6 - not that I can do a 0.6 draw, that's just how short a par time I'm chasing at the end.

OK, now set the par time back to 1.0, or another time that previously felt really, really hard to hit. What I suspect you will find is that 1.0 seconds now feels like an eternity and you are just staring a hole in your front sight by the time the buzzer sounds. Once you get "used" to working and thinking and perceiving at sub 0.9 paces - even if you're not really succeeding at those paces - then you realize that 1 second is plenty of time to get everything done.

Now, of course, this improvement, like most improvements, is mostly transient. You'll carry over a small fraction of your improvement to your next match. But if you pile up those small fractions often enough and long enough, you can make big differences.

As you're working through these draws, shift your attention around to different parts of the "stroke." Here are some observations about myself (which may or may not apply to you, but probably do, because I'm not that special) that I've made over time doing this drill:
  • Different phases of the motion have different levels of trade-off between max-speed and control.
    • Getting your right hand to the gun and your left hand to your centerline - very, very little tradeoff between speed and control. Rip your hands to the gun/centerline as fast as you can. Think of the handspeed you'd use for a game of slapjack (stupid hand-slapping game)... literally as quick as you can move.
    • Getting the grip in the holster - some tradeoff here. Try to work through exactly what the order and location of contact points are between you and the gun (e.g., center of web centers beavertail first, then X, then Y)... if those are consistent, chances of a fouled-up grip go down, and you may be able to build the RH grip a little faster.
    • Gun from holster to LH. Some tradeoff here, but you've got to accelerate the gun from a standstill. This needs some energy in it.
    • Gun from hands-together to ready to shoot. Serious tradeoff here. Excess force in this phase will cause the gun to bounce around a lot when you run out of arms and it stops. I feel like the last foot of horizontal movement is "coasting" with nothing beyond the inertia of the gun (which I've been moving pretty hard/fast prior to this point) carrying it out to the firing position.
  • My left hand is the drag as I get the speed faster. If I'm focused on the gun or my right hand, then my left hand will slightly lag, and will slow everything down. When I'm drilling in the 0.8 range and below, I really have to think about my left hand to have any prayer of staying with the beep.
  • As Ben Stoeger says (paraphrasing), "if you're moving something other than your arms, you should stop moving that thing."
  • Experiment a little with elbow path consciousness. The Ron Avery video where he gave the imagery of a string attached to the back of your elbows being jerked upward at the start of the draw was helpful to me in speeding up the first part of the draw. I personally find a more straight-back/up and forward elbow path is more efficient for me than chicken-winging my elbows out to the side.... I like to keep things "on plane" as much as possible. (Perhaps a carryover fixation from my golf days.)
Thanks so much. I worked for a while this morning and got to 1.1 with regularity and acceptable sight picture. I tried turning my head to the right slightly before the beep to align my left/dominant eye with where the sights will be, and that helps some. I just need to drill it into my muscle memory.

Also I've been starting hands at sides. Surrender takes me a little longer.
 
Don't stop moving the time down just because things are going to hell. Go ahead and move it down more. Chase it hard. This is as much about speeding up your internal perceptual clock as it is anything mechanical. Don't wait to "nail it" before moving the beep down. If you're nailing it, move it. If you've done 10 reps and haven't yet nailed it, move it anyway. Put yourself in a spot where you are chasing the beep.

Use it like the robotic rabbit at a greyhound dog racing track. They don't ever get to catch the rabbit... but it makes them run faster.
 
I buy into the philosophy that slow practice makes slow reality. This is something that Steve Anderson preaches, and is similar to what @ATLDave summarized. By pushing hard, I have found that I get faster.
 
Tried some live fire drills with G23 and M&P/CORE/RMR. IDPA shots from holster arms at sides from 7 yards I can get down Zeros in around 1.2 every time. If I push to 1.0 I was throwing them just outside into the down one.

At three yards I can get down ones or down zeros in .9 but not consistent and it's really just point shooting and I can't guarantee good hits. I might see a blur of red dot as I yank the trigger but usually it's just a mess.

Lots of work to do. I also find I can prep the DA trigger of the P226 much harder and earlier which is one of the advantages taught by Langdon and Jerry Jones/Bruce Gray. I end up snatching the striker triggers badly.

I guess I should probably pick one platform but I kinda like to mix things up. It's definitely hurting my times.

Still, I started out cold with a 100% clean "the test" in about 7 seconds and a 3.3ish clean Bill Drill at 7 yards with the optic so I feel positive about that. Really good bill drills should be what... 2 seconds?

Shooting more paper I'm getting a little better at calling the shot and moving on rather than waiting to hear the steel ring.

Lots to work on...
 
I guess I should probably pick one platform but I kinda like to mix things up. It's definitely hurting my times.
At some point (and it sounds like that point is now), unless you have a lot of time to practice on a daily basis, you're going to have to pick between performance and variety.
 
Still, I started out cold with a 100% clean "the test" in about 7 seconds and a 3.3ish clean Bill Drill at 7 yards with the optic so I feel positive about that. Really good bill drills should be what... 2 seconds?

.

2 seconds clean I'd say is solid, but much faster is possible. IDPA scoring really ruins being able to push the pace (see also: have any fun) because one shot out basically ruins the run.
 
I disagree somewhat. I shoot both styles and both are fun in their own way. The really fast guys prove that you can still be really accurate and really fast. Of course this is also true in USPSA type shooting.

I used to be bugged by IDPA ticky-tack rules and the associated SOs that are drawn to it, but then I relaxed and realized it's just another game with a different set of rules. You play the game, you need to know the rules. I stopped trying to make it make sense and just started to have fun again.

Helps that I found out which SOs I didn't like and just don't register for their squads anymore.
 
2 seconds clean I'd say is solid, but much faster is possible.
What kind of target/accuracy standard are we talking about and at what distance for 2 seconds? I'm googling some but they're all on torso sized steel plates... which obviously doesn't really hold you to a very tight accuracy standard.
 
What kind of target/accuracy standard are we talking about and at what distance for 2 seconds? I'm googling some but they're all on torso sized steel plates... which obviously doesn't really hold you to a very tight accuracy standard.

In the 1.50s clean on a USPSA target is doable. I'm sure 1.40s is possible for some of the super-GMs out there.
 
I disagree somewhat. I shoot both styles and both are fun in their own way. The really fast guys prove that you can still be really accurate and really fast. Of course this is also true in USPSA type shooting.

I used to be bugged by IDPA ticky-tack rules and the associated SOs that are drawn to it, but then I relaxed and realized it's just another game with a different set of rules. You play the game, you need to know the rules. I stopped trying to make it make sense and just started to have fun again.

Helps that I found out which SOs I didn't like and just don't register for their squads anymore.

I started out in IDPA. I know the rules. They have ruined the sport with the 1 second per point scoring, which is unfortunate because most of the other rule changes seem to have made it better.
 
IDPA match today. I finally beat the fast guys on a couple of stages and came within half a second on a couple. Crashed and burned on a couple and ended up like 7th overall but I think this is a step in the right direction. Fast guy was still faster and more accurate overall but the speed gap is narrowing at least.
 
IDPA match today. I finally beat the fast guys on a couple of stages and came within half a second on a couple. Crashed and burned on a couple and ended up like 7th overall but I think this is a step in the right direction. Fast guy was still faster and more accurate overall but the speed gap is narrowing at least.

Now you know you can do it. From here it's just a matter of building consistency and then continuing to push for improvement.

So awesome, congratulations! As @JohnKSa says, now you know can do it. Build on that feeling!
 
Fast guy was still faster and more accurate overall but the speed gap is narrowing at least.
Great, looks like you are making good progress.

Keep in mind, while you are improving, the "fast guy" could be improving as well. ;)

I was told by many regional shooters that in the end, you are not competing with others rather competing with yourself. As long as you are improving while eliminating errors and shaving time off various processes, you are becoming a better shooter.

Consider approaching shooting from "Zen" perspective where you master all of your shooting techniques to where you don't make any mistakes/errors ... and all of your shots absolutely positively go where you intend for them to go ... as fast as you can shoot them ... with or without using the sights. :D

Brian Enos 1 hour podcast on "Zen Master of Shooting" from Shooters Summit (Jump to 17:15 minute mark for "zen" of match shooting discussion from "Beyond Fundamentals") - https://firearmsnation.com/brian-enos-zen-master-of-shooting-summit-replay/

In the podcast, Brian mentions reaching "zen" state of shooting where you go "beyond" shooting fundamentals where time is irrelevant and shoot in a "state of knowing" of moving with focus - "knowing" where all the targets are.

"You see the A box before you get there."

"Focus ... It's a beautiful state ... A timeless experience ... A doubt-free process ... All thoughts are turned over to being a watcher, knowing ... You don't need to think about anything"

"You must first learn the mechanics of shooting" (Line up the sights and hold the sights on target until hammer drops) before reaching the "zen" state of shooting.

My takeaway from the podcast is "Zen state of shooting" is doing without having to think, reaching a focused state of awareness of all targets and engaging them without pressure of time and certainty of knowing where all the holes will appear on target.
 
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Local IDPA match today, placed first in SSP EX and third overall. Fast guy/master shooter was 2-3 seconds faster on most stages still, but it used to be like 10 seconds. Felt like my draws were faster, my shots were "good enough" but I was still feeling the pressure to get down zeros. Some stages I still was shooting clean but down 3 seconds raw time, while fast guy was down a couple or three but when it washed out his speed more than made up for it.

Classified EX again, about 1 second out of master. Need to practice strong hand more. Need to practice draws to first shot WITH CONCEALMENT. Need to clean/check my extractor as I had a nasty FTE/double feed malf that cost me a stage. Need to just accept the fact that I'm going to have to use the slingshot method to reload with my P226, or put the original slide lock lever back in, or switch guns. The P226 has been my SSP pistol and I've been trying to keep up my iron sight proficiency on it while I shoot the M&P in Carry Optics some matches.
 
Awesome!

As long as YOU are improving, that's all that matters.

Never know, you may improve to the point in the future where you may catch up to the "fast guy" and you become the "new fast guy". ;)
 
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