Moving Targets

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Ryder

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I don't see this discussed much. Thought it would make for a good discussion. Basically I am mainly interested as it pertains to handguns. Anybody done this enough to comment on it?

I got curious after that story of the cops in the bar who filled a pickup truck full of lead and missed the driver so I ran some numbers.

For a 45acp the lead looks something like this:
0.5" per mph @21'
1.0" per mph @50'
1.5" per mph @75'

Typical person runs at about 10mph so a broadside shot directly at a running person 50' (16 yards) away is going to be a clean miss. On a car moving 3 times that speed you're looking at almost 3 feet. On a car going twice that speed you're probably looking at an aimpoint up around the front bumper!

Doesn't this assume you are sweeping the gun along with the target? In other words if you pick out a single aim point in front of a moving target you'd probably have to double these estimates to get a hit due to the time delay involved in your own reactions?
 
At 860 ft per second or faster from the 45acp loads, there will be no lead time.

At 20 feet, the round would reach the target in about .02325 seconds. That 1/5 of 1/10 of a second. Lead? what lead?

Most people are prone to shoot behind the moving target and so "lead" a little.

If you are trained properly on movers, there is "no need for lead".

Same with a shotgun or rifle if one has mastered the movers with technique.

Brownie
 
At 20 feet, the round would reach the target in about .02325 seconds. That 1/5 of 1/10 of a second. Lead? what lead?
Click to expand...

What lead? 5 inches for a 10mph target. If you're aiming for the center of the head that's a miss. If your aiming center of mass and not sweeping along with the target it's probably also going to be a miss.

5 inches sounds like a lot to someone who is used to less than half that at twice the distance on a stationary targets.

Maybe I'm just nitpickin. That's what I don't know without the experience. I'll check out that shotgun thread. Thanks.
 
Wow, thanks GT. Those shotgunners really have it down to a science. Found this thread Lead 101 where the terminology I was lacking gets explained.

I've used "sustained lead" with shotguns in the past and "spot shooting" with rifles. Just never had a chance to test it with a pistol. I'm thinking sustained lead should work fine for that too.

One pearl of wisdom I found in that thread was ''miss in front''. I like that saying. :) At least you're trying to lead if that happens. Given my past experiences with hunting if you aren't leading a moving target you might as well believe in voodoo cause it's going to do you just about as much good. My theory from the past is to "shoot where they're going to be, not where they're at".
 
My first thought when seeing the thread was "swing through" technique- its the wingshooting technique I use most often- swing through the moving object and pull the trigger as you pass its front edge. Swing has to be faster than the target is moving and has to be followed through. Never tried it with a rifle or pistol though.
 
Ryder:

If you are following the target [ tracking ] with the handgun there's no need to lead. The bullet is there the instant it's fired at that distance.

If you are going to keep the gun stationary, then sure, you'll need some form of lead, not much though.

You should be tracking the target and keeping the gun on the object of desire. Most will shoot behind the target as they attempt to find the sights which takes time and the target has moved, always attempting to "catch up" to it which is not impossible but nearly so enough that it's not the way to accomplish the task at hand.

I'm not sure why you would be aiming at the head of a target 20 feet out with a handgun thats moving 10 miles an hour. BTW-- thats about flat out for a human, a fast human at that. Most won't be able to sustain or get to that figure of speed so it's on the extreme and not the norm. Half that speed is more likely a norm, that means 2 1/2" or less in the timeframe we are talking about.

And still, anything moving with a handgun? I would think most would look to the biggest part of the target for any edge they could get. Now take those figures with a 40 s+w moving at 1300 per second. The target moves what? an inch?

Like I said, what lead time is needed?--none is the correct answer if you you are tracking correctly and not playing catchup with the sights as most are prone to do.


Brownie
 
I think the problem with follow through shooting with a pistol would be follow up. It's going to be pretty hard to get off multiple follow through shots aimed.

I see what your saying bBrownie. I'm going to find a nice sandy hill this summer and make up a tire target, see how it works. For some reason I can see myself hesitating as the shot breaks. Perhaps tracking on the leading edge would work better for me? We'll have to see about that.

Hhhhehhe "object of desire". Must be close to Valentines day. I don't think we want to terminate objects of desire. :D
 
Hi Ryder,

In the drills at Swat training with HK in Virginia, we were given movers at 10 paces [ about 25 feet ] that moved at various speeds from left to right and right to left as well.

Had to get as many on the target as possible while in view with accuracy. Tracking was not really an issue for most with follow on shots. The target would be visible for 2-3 seconds and most could get a magazine into the targets in that time frame [ 7-9 rounds ].

It does take some practice as it is not all that intuitive and most do not shoot movers regularly to stay up on the drills through practice. It's challenging stuff and real important to learn to do it as most BG's are not going to be static like the targets on stands on some line as given [ known ] distance in the real world.

We also had to shoot on the move, that for me was more challenging than anything else for the week we were there. Now when both parties are moving and it's dynamic, it gets real interesting.

Good luck in your quest to play with movers. It will be worth the effort to get it down in the final analysis.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
Part of the problem too is that there is a bit of time between when the brain says "pull trigger" and when the gun actually goes off. Even if the bullet could be at the target instantaneously, you still would have to have some sort of lead.
 
If you are aiming for a 1 or 2 inch moving target, and have to be that precise, yes, better lead.

Otherwise, you will hit the target within an inch or two and as the example showed this at 20 feet, cut the distance to 10 feet as realistic to a gun battle and the 1-2 inch difference is reduced to something about 1/2 or 1 inch. Thats a pretty small target to be trying for, while it's moving, and I can't imagine a self defense scenario where that much precision would be called for with a handgun.


No leads will be necessary in the real world for all intents and purposes. Thats been the real world I've experienced with movers. Not theoretically but practically speaking. If you are shooting at someone whose a threat and moving, who here will be unhappy to hit the target continuously and complain or even know their shot was off by an inch from where the muzzle was pointed at the time the gun went off?

I know I won't be complaining about lag time, lead times or even worrying about it myself. Its a moot point, proven too many times in the real world of combat, not to be a factor in hitting or missing the mover at handgun distances. More likely it's shooter error and the shooter does not have the knowledge and experience to hit moving targets of opportunity.

Now a sniper will lead the quarry and there are formulas for this which we were also instructed in at counter sniper training that included oblique angles away or toward you, right angle left or right, etc. Handguns?, too close to make any real difference.

Brownie
 
At CQB distances in the real world, forget the lead and just get to the shooting. On the range (yeah I know this ain't the competition forum)shooting movers, you need to lead to score well and it's more than most people think.
 
Quote: "I'm not sure why you would be aiming at the head of a target 20 feet out with a handgun thats moving 10 miles an hour. BTW-- thats about flat out for a human, a fast human at that. Most won't be able to sustain or get to that figure of speed so it's on the extreme and not the norm."


I'm not sure what fat people you watch run, but I'd say the majority of the people you'll be shooting at will be running faster than that. That is the pace of a 6 minute mile. Well, they won't be running from you shooting at them for 6 minutes, so they will be sprinting. I personally average 30 feet per second over 100 meters (110 yards). That is 20 miles per hour. My instantaneous speed will be faster since for that 20 mph I started from a stop.

So, if you are shooting somebody who is flat out sprinting at 10 mph, you are correct, you won't need a lead. That is because the person is going to be about 250 or 300. Much bigger target. Myself on the other hand, that 1" per mph at 50 feet, well, you'll miss me by 20 inches. I am not even close to that thick. MAYBE 9 inches from the side (which for the leads to be accurate, I have to be moving perpindicular to you anyway).

Think about the types of people you will be shooting at (if any). They are criminals. Most criminals are younger, faster guys, not overweight 50 year old smokers who top out at 7mph sprinting. 7mph, that is a 33 second 100 meter time. That is a slow jog. If they are running for their life, they will NOT be doing a slow jog.

20 feet is not far at all. But then again, a self defense shooting isn't going to be shooting at 20 feet with somebody running perpindicular to them anyway, the person will most likely be running at them, or away from them. 20 feet, if I am already running, is less than a second. For a LOT of people, 20 feet, if already running, is less than a second. And for quite a few (but certaintly not the majority), 20 feet is about 1 second from a stop.

Now, since the OP was prompted by somebody shooting at someone in a vehicle and failing to hit, that is very likely. Hope I never have to shoot somebody in a car....though if I do, it is likely because they are heading straight at me trying to run me over, so lead is a moot point.

Hmm, not sure if I have ever posted here before, guess I'll check my register date and post count after I make this post.
 
Spudgunr:

After some research, we find that you are correct. Also found the fastest man record was 37kph, not sure on the conversion to mph but it's damned fast.

"A really fast human can run at about 27 mph very briefly, 22 mph averaged over a 100 meter race. But most of us run a lot slower than this."

I stand corrected on the mph in humans.


Brownie
 
I have a remote controlled 'Hummer' that I glued PVC pipe elbow joints to it to hold thin wood dowels. I put computer bottom cardboard for the targerts. My shooting buddy and I take turns with the remote control while the other shoots the mover. Sometimes just the mover moves, sometimes we move while it is moving.

This is very educational. You learn to hit while you move to cover and the target is also moving to cover, or attacking, or retreating....
 
It's challenging stuff and real important to learn to do it
Click to expand...

That's why I brought the subject up. Having been a hunter for 30 years I know this is extremely important in regards to live targets. Don't really want to tell you how many crtitters I've missed, it's pretty embarassing, but I did get a handle on it eventually.


You learn to hit while you move to cover and the target is also moving to cover
Click to expand...

If it's learnable I will learn it (eventually). Can you put what you've learned into words? Some theory before I get started would be really useful. Given my past experience it could save me years of practice. :)

For me all scenarios don't revolve around some guy trying to steal my wallet. Suppose there is a terrorist cell of a dozen persons running everywhich way shooting people. Do I really care if they are not coming in my direction or that they are not in my face? Long shots at moving targets are not a totally unrealist expectation these days.
 
This has always worked for me, with high-cap mags, of course! Pull way ahead of target, and fire BACK TOWARD the target, meet it, the track it. I almost always get hits when the rounds first meet up with the target.

As such:

Target Rd.3 Rd.2 Rd. 1
. .. X . . .
Rd. 5 Rd.4
Rd. 6

I do not shoot running game, but I used this method while in the military.
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Movers

It is very important to practice on moving targets. I teach both L.E. and Citizens defense classes. I use a remote control truck with wooden dowels about 4 feet tall. I attach a balloon to the top of the dowel and have students it the balloon.

We start off with just the target moving. We then go to just the student moving to both moving. Gunfights are dynamic. Training should be also.

We end up with man on man with air soft where you have thinking and bobbing targets the most realistic.
 
A person running 10 mph covers 14.67 fps. At 20 feet (not 21, sorry Ryder) and firing a bullet traveling 860 fps as Brownie suggested, the impact point

Speed of running at 10 MPH
10 mph = 5280 * 10 = 52800 feet per hour
52800/60 = 880 feep per minute
880/60 = 14.67 feet per second
14.67 * 12 = 176 inches per second.

Using Brownie's data for the time to reach target @20 feet for a 860 fps projectile, 0.02325 seconds, you find that the target has actually moved 4.09 inches in that amount of time. This estimate is for a STATIC shot where the gun is not tracking.

So, a person running 10 mph beaks a trip beam that send a signal to fire a projectile at 860 fps from a distance of 20 feet that has a head high aim pooint. If the beam is broken with the front of the head, the shot will impact 4" back. At 60', it would be a clean miss.

If you taken into account reaction time for a static shot, another 0.2 seconds or so between the time when the running target enters the sight picture and the person fires, the miss is huge. Static ambush shots on moving targets at distance are not a good idea. That is why folks are taught to track.

If you are tracking, then the fired bullet will have lateral movement. Your sight picture aim point will be moving at 10 mph just like the target.
What you will lose out on is some slight wind resistence and the time and velocity loss with distance. As the round loses velocity, the time to reach the target increases from the estimate. As such the round will not reach the target in the theoretical time and as such, the target will move further relative to the fired round as the target is maintaining 10 mph and the round fired is not maintaining 860 fps. The greater the distance, the greater this disparity.
 
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