Mueller Optics

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Mags

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Last month I bought a Mueller Optics 4-16x mil-dot scope from Midway USA. The scope arrived with a defect or foreign object on the inside of the lens. I wanted to see how well the scope worked and decided to mount it up anyways and shoot with it. I figured I could return it back to Mueller after I shot with it.

After a range session I liked the scope and wanted to get it fixed or replaced. I emailed Mueller that I had mounted the scope and the problem I had with it. They said to ship it in to them and that the scope would be covered under their warranty.

Last night I get a message from Mueller to give them a call. I called them this morning and they told me the spot in my scope was paint from the inside of the scope body. They told me that I tightened the scope down to tight in the mount I was using and caused the paint to crack in the inside of my scope. Mueller claimed my scope has ring marks on it which it does not.

There are several problems I have with this, the first being the scope had the defect before I ever installed it. The second thing is the mount I used prevents overtightening and the last problem I have with their story is I used proper torquing procedures to mount the scope.

Then these guys tell me they will not warranty my scope, even though I had a problem prior to mounting it. They offered me a new scope at their cost which I declined. I asked them where in their warranty does it state not to use a defective scope. They couldn't tell me, they also told me they deem my scope to be abused and will not replace it. I asked for them to send me my scope back. I sure hope they didn't make it worse than it was.

So buyer beware of Mueller and their shady warranty practices, I read other reviews where they had a quick turnaround on returns. All I got was the runaround.
 
I think Midway states once it's mounted it's mine, but at least their up front about it.
 
I had a similar (but better) experience with a Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x. I had it mounted on a Remington 700 Alaskan Ti chambered in .300 WSM and after a couple of trips to the range, a large piece of crap appeared on the reticle. I sent it back to Leupold, Leupold fixed it, I got it back in less than three weeks, mounted it on the rifle and within 20 rounds or so another big piece of crap appeared on the reticle. I called Leupold again and the guy on the phone told me to address the box to him personally and that he'd take care of it. I sent it in, they fixed it, and once again I got it back in less than three weeks and it's been perfect ever since. I had to pay shipping to Leupold twice, but when you consider that one 35 round session at the range costs a lot more than shipping. The scope is perfect now and that's all that matters to me.

:)
 
I had similar great experience with Leopold. Once over a new scope that wouldn't adjust - they fixed it and it's been perfect since; the other time with a scope I had almost 20 years and thought had a problem. I found the problem was with the gun. Leupold refurbished the old scope anyway and returned it at no charge.
 
I have a the same Mueller 4-16x mildot scope on my Savage. Great scope. I'd like to kow more about these scope rings that prevent over tightening.......because it seems to me that you could never be sure how tight the rings are.

If you had the problem prior to mounting, why did you mount it? I would have put it back in the box and sent it back immediately. Seems to me you created your own problem by putting the scope ring marks on the scope. Kind of hard to blame Mueller.....or even Midway if they refuse to take the scope back.
 
Steve, I think you're being a little rough. After deciding on a model and waiting for it to arrive, we're all anxious to test out new toys. Not that I would have mounted it, but it certainly is not the buyers fault the scope is defective and I'm sure he chose to try it out with good faith in Mueller, that they would honor the warranty.

Mags - why not ask Mueller how much they want to fix the scope, eat the cost, and be done with that company? As a last ditch effort, call back, speak to a supervisor and point blank tell them that you participate on a popular forum and plan to relate your Mueller experience to the thousands of eyes that will see your report. That you plan to post an honest report, good or bad and it's their opportunity to shine or fade. Any company rep with only a few brain cells would calmly shut you up and make you happy. Is all that bad PR, for a company trying to build a reputation (as opposed to say, a Leupold), worth the $100 it will cost them?

Please try this and report back, hopefully you can report a good experience with a company rep willing to make a judgment call and make everyone happy.

Add: I've had better luck dealing with a sales department (vs. tech suport) as they seem to better understand customer satisfaction and company image.
 
Perhaps send an e-mail or call and direct them to this thread.

Personally I have the same scope and have been very happy with it. I have considered making future purchases from Mueller Optics, but if this is the sort of customer service they offer I will think twice.

Out of curiosity, what was "their cost" to get a new scope?
 
ArtP - honestly, if the tactics are to hold them hostage for blackmail, I think you are way out of line. Not that stating experiences are bad. Just that such a tactic is pretty low and removes a lot of your credibility.

I would call Mueller back and talk to a manager about the situation as it happened. I have talked to the guys over there a couple times and they have always gone out of their way to fix a wrong, even if it was the end user's fault. It's unfortunate that it has been handled the way it has so far, but I think if you talk to someone with pull in the company, they will straighten things out.

Swing over to rimfirecentral and give the same review. I know some of the top guys from Mueller read the forums over there and have been fairly active in solving any wrongs that have occurred.
 
Benzy, No one is looking out for Mags but Mags. Mueller is not looking out for Mags. I would do whatever is legal to get them to honor THEIR warranty.

If I lose credibility, so be it.
 
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Benzy - the tactic is to make public, without imbelishment, excactly what a persons experience is with a manufacturer. I don't see anything wrong with that. Are you suggesting telling the truth about an experience with a manufacturer is blackmail? What are product reviews?

Are you suggesting to fork over good money, be told "no warranty" by some employee then humbly accept the loss?

I'm suggesting a threat because he has already asked nicely only to be left in the cold. It's time to up the stakes. Obviously Mueller isn't looking out for Mags, so Mags should look out for Mags without concern for Mueller.

Again, its hostile. I think the attitude of fix it or I'll tell everyone is a bunch of ****. I said I have no problems with people stating their experiences. I never said he shouldn't have stated his dealing with Mueller. I'm glad he stated exactly how things worked out. I believe I said that in the first post I made. I wish everyone would state their dealings with CS of any company and I never said or implied otherwise.

I just think the idea of telling them fix it or I'm telling is childish and immature. I've seen the customers like that before and honestly, I give in less to that than I do to someone cool calm collected being friendly. Typically, the people who act like that, were at fault in the end.

I will say it again, rather than get hostile, move up the ladder to someone with more say. I wasn't saying to settle for the answer that was given. In fact I stated to try to go to a forum where the Mueller higher ups visit fairly regularly. I'm all for Mags looking out for Mags, but sometimes trashing the person/company you are trying to get service from isn't a great idea.

Even if you ignore the immature nature of the threat, look at its value. Do you honestly think a manufacturer cares about a single review? They'll give the typical PC answer that they do in correspondence, but in the end, one scope sale means nothing. One voice from one user on some internet forum means nothing. Its a threat that really has no consequence. Not that you shouldn't state how your transactions go be it good or bad, but one voice on the internet is insignificant. If you were a prestigious scope reviewer maybe your threat would hold more value, but you aren't.
 
Even if you ignore the immature nature of the threat, look at its value. Do you honestly think a manufacturer cares about a single review? They'll give the typical PC answer that they do in correspondence, but in the end, one scope sale means nothing. One voice from one user on some internet forum means nothing. Its a threat that really has no consequence. Not that you shouldn't state how your transactions go be it good or bad, but one voice on the internet is insignificant. If you were a prestigious scope reviewer maybe your threat would hold more value, but you aren't.

Mueller doesn't have the name recognition Leupold does (I'm not a giant Leupold fan BTW). If they expect to grow their reputation (clearly they have a low market share), then it does matter what one person says on the internet. How many people have read what has happened and might have lowered their opinion of Mueller, or at least lowered their expectations of service? Count the views not just the replies.

I think Leupold makes fine optics and they command a premium price, comparitively speaking. They get away with that premium by providing the best possible service and giving every customer the benefit of any doubt. If Mueller doesn't care what one person thinks, they should.

For the sake of discussion, let's pretend that Mueller really does not care. Who in the end will have a more sucessful business model - Mueller or Leupold? And last, if they're going to stiff Mags on his warranty, won't they be stiffing everyone?

I suppose I'd like to leave you with the thought that perhaps is it is somewhat blackmail to have to threaten Mueller to get warranty service. But isn't it Mueller who has caused the threat in the first place by not honoring their own warranty? Honor the flippin' warranty and none of this would be an issue.
 
I just think the idea of telling them fix it or I'm telling is childish and immature. I've seen the customers like that before and honestly, I give in less to that than I do to someone cool calm collected being friendly. Typically, the people who act like that, were at fault in the end.

I believe in being friendly, forgiving and understanding on a first attempt, as you pointed out - and as Mags tried on his first attempt. I'm only saying to get nasty when playing fair doesn't work.

I don't know about you, but I've been burned too many times to sit back and accept it and maybe post something on a board and hope some manager sees my dissatisfaction and comes to my rescue. **** that! I suppose I'm a little more proactive. If you want to label that as childish or take a poke at my credibility, then we can agree to disagree.
 
Firstly, you should not have mounted it. You should've immediately called Midway, they would've promptly replaced it. Secondly, "shady warranty practices"??? Sorry sir but Mueller is EXTREMELY well reputed. You won't find a more recommended scope on RFC than their APV. Methinks, as usual, we're not hearing the whole story.
 
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Mueller doesn't have the name recognition Leupold does (I'm not a giant Leupold fan BTW). If they expect to grow their reputation (clearly they have a low market share), then it does matter what one person says on the internet. How many people have read what has happened and might have lowered their opinion of Mueller, or at least lowered their expectations of service? Count the views not just the replies.

I think Leupold makes fine optics and they command a premium price, comparitively speaking. They get away with that premium by providing the best possible service and giving every customer the benefit of any doubt. If Mueller doesn't care what one person thinks, they should.

For the sake of discussion, let's pretend that Mueller really does not care. Who in the end will have a more sucessful business model - Mueller or Leupold? And last, if they're going to stiff Mags on his warranty, won't they be stiffing everyone?

I suppose I'd like to leave you with the thought that perhaps is it is somewhat blackmail to have to threaten Mueller to get warranty service. But isn't it Mueller who has caused the threat in the first place by not honoring their own warranty? Honor the flippin' warranty and none of this would be an issue.
Great in theory. Like I said, I assume their official stance, as with every other company, would be that they care about every single customer to the end. The truth is, in this world, one purchase, good or bad, isn't going to make or break a company. It isn't. Live in whatever world you would like that thinks this thread is going to be the step that altered Mueller's future. If you would like to think that way go for it. In fact, for the one negative review there have been a couple positives with it. And as for them not honoring their warranty, what exactly did the scope look like when it was sent out? Oh thats right, you don't know because you didn't send it. I don't know who is at fault here. Maybe Mueller made a bad call. Then again, maybe their warranty specifically says manufacturing defects and not user caused faults. If the scope appears to be defective due to a user error, I don't believe that was to be covered under warranty.

The business model depends. Do you spend all your income on repairs or do you lose a few customers that you didn't repair? 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other. It all comes down to how much repair/replacement bills run as to which is a better model to follow.

Yeah Leupold has great CS. You sure pay for it too. Their premiums for their scopes cover their cost of CS repairs/replacements. Not quite a free lunch, especially if you never need to use their CS.

I believe in being friendly, forgiving and understanding on a first attempt, as you pointed out - and as Mags tried on his first attempt. I'm only saying to get nasty when playing fair doesn't work.

I don't know about you, but I've been burned too many times to sit back and accept it and maybe post something on a board and hope some manager sees my dissatisfaction and comes to my rescue. **** that! I suppose I'm a little more proactive. If you want to label that as childish or take a poke at my credibility, then we can agree to disagree.

We heard he had 1 phone call that stated they feel he caused the problem, not that it was a defective product. That's 1 call to a service tech. If that is all the farther you are going to go before you start threatening a company, well, good luck.

I said to go up the ladder, however possible. Take it as posting on a website and hoping someone sees it and nothing more. You seem to twist every comment I make into something it wasn't meant to be. Let me make this crystal clear. Call back, get someone higher up, and talk to them. If that doesn't work, go above them. Then go above them. All this done politely. You will get farther this way in life than if you start threatening when the first person doesn't agree with you.

The proactive part is a bunch of BS. Contacting the next in command is proactive. Trying to reach the upper management in a spot they visit frequently is proactive. I didn't say cry about it online (or threaten to) and hope that solves all my problems. And at this point, what good is the threat? He already posted (fairly) about his experience. What is he to threaten with from here? If you don't fix this I won't delete my thread? What a joke. There is no threat. Only a customer getting pissy rather than trying to work things out. Not saying he has gotten pissy. So far everything done seems justified. Just that if he calls back threatening, well, he's threatening with a hollow threat.

Having first hand experience with Mueller's service I find it hard to believe if the steps I mentioned were followed that the problem wouldn't be cured. I say that because the way I talk about has worked for me personally with Mueller in the past. Sure you could try blowing a gasket from the get go, and it may work just as well. But then again, it may anger the service staff who have determined the scope was damaged by the user (there are two sides to every story, who says the customer is always telling the truth and the manufacturer is always telling a lie) and make them less likely to deal or work with you to fix things up.

In the end do whatever you like. Not my money. Not my problem. My experiences with Mueller CS were far better than described here. But maybe I caught them on a good day.
 
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I have a Sport Dot scope purchased in 1995. I took it out to check the sight in for a match and the inside of the scope was filled with moisture. I called Mueller, and sent them the scope. My delivery confirmation said they received it on Monday and I got an email Tuesday saying the seals leaked and they would be sending me a new scope, same model, updated version. I am in the market for 2 additional rifle scopes and they will say Mueller on them when I purchase them. I am sorry Mags had problems with Mueller. I found in my conversations with them that they are very professional and customer oriented.
 
Mueller customer service is nothing to write home about.

The knob on my adjustable illuminated reticle sport dot scope was so stiff that it was nearly impossible to turn, so Mueller customer service lamely told me to keep working it back and forth and it will loosen up. After about 5 hours of television watching over a period of a week, working the knob back and forth over and over again, it was still just as tight. After calling Mueller again, I knew they weren't going to help me. So I disassembled the knob and removed the index plate, the detents of which I flattened out on an anvil and reassembled.

Problem solved, but no thanks to their customer service.
 
I talked to Dave at Mueller, he said he would talk to his supervisor for me. The supervisor said the damge done to the scope by me was to bad for them to honor their warranty. I wonder if they have my scope or someone elses. The scope I sent them was in beautiful condition. I even used oil in between the scope and mount when I mounted it to preclude marring. Here is the scope I sent in while it was mounted.

If you guys remember I wrote a review of the rifle and scope last month here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=542146

Here are pics of the scope mounted on my rifle.
100_0929.jpg
100_0927.jpg
 
Here is Mueller's warranty: http://www.muelleroptics.com/products/lifetime-warranty
Limited Lifetime Warranty
If at any time during the warranty period a Mueller scope is found to have a defect in material or workmanship, Mueller will, at our discretion, repair or replace it free of charge. The warranty is void if damage results from unauthorized repair, alteration, abuse or misuse. The warranty is transferable and we do not require a registration card to be completed, we only require a copy of the original receipt, which must be from an authorized Mueller Optics dealer. Please be sure when transferring the Scope to another user that a copy of the receipt is also transferred. Mueller reserves the right to replace any product, which has been discontinued from its product line with a new product of comparable value and function. This warranty shall be void if and no force of effect if an Mueller warranty inspector has determined the Mueller product has been abused, misused, mishandled or tampered with in anyway whatsoever. No implied warranty of this product is extended. Some states do not allow limitations of implied warranty so this limitation may not apply to you. This warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may also have other rights, which may vary from state to state.

Important:

Warranty service should be returned postage pre-paid to Mueller Optics LLC and NOT returned to the store where it was purchased. When returning products for warranty service include a note explaining the problem, a copy of the purchase receipt, a return shipping address, and contact information either a email address or phone number inside the box.

Return with a check or money order in the amount of $12.00 if the product was purchases more than 30 days from the date being returned to cover handling and return postage and insurance charges. If the product is being returned for warranty work with-in 30 days of purchased date, Mueller Optics will cover these charges. As defined by federal law, this is a limited Warranty.

•This warranty only applies in the continental United States
•Should a buyer provide Mueller Optics with a delivery address that is incorrect, the buyer will be held responsible for the item(s).
•When sending a product back for Warranty services, please be sure to get delivery confirmation or a tracking number, we will not be held responsible if a product is not received.
•Once an item(s) has been purchased, the item(s) becomes the property of the buyer and Mueller Optics will not give an exchange for that item(s). Even if the item(s) have not been opened.
For warranty service the consumer should send the Mueller Product to the warranty dept of Mueller Optics LLC.
Nowhere in the warranty is it voided if the scope is used. They have the "catch all" of this: " This warranty shall be void if and no force of effect if an Mueller warranty inspector has determined the Mueller product has been abused, misused, mishandled or tampered with in anyway whatsoever." I believe that is what they are using against me, but I am telling you guys first my scope arrived with a defect and second the scope was never damaged by me. I mailed it off to them in pristine condition, I really think they are either lying or they mixed my scope uo with someone else's.
 
Here is the text from an email before I sent the scope in:

Hey Dominick,
I apologize about that, If you could send it back to us, no RMA number required. You can include this email or put attention Dave. The addresses below are your shipping options. Our turn-around time is very fast, usually around the shipping and 2 days here. I apologize for the inconvenience Dominick, we will have taken care Quickly. If you have any questions let us know.
Priority Mail
Mueller Optics LLC
P.O Box 457
Johannesburg, MI 49751

UPS/FedEx
Mueller Optics LLC
10881 M-32 E.
Johannesburg, MI 49751



Thank You,
Dave
Mueller Optics
[email protected]
1-888-775-8885

Greetings,

I recently purchased a Mueller 4-16x AO illuminated Mil-Dot from Midway USA. Upon receiving the scope I noticed something stuck inside the glass in the lower left quadrant of the scope.
I have mounted and used the scope to see if I could live with it; it’s tolerable but I would like to send it in for repair/replacement. Do I need an RMA or something to ship the scope back?

BTW the scope is very nice besides the foreign materiel in the glass.

Thanks,

My name and address removed
 
Better Business Bureau, Midway Supervisor, Mueller Supervisor, Start hitting every site that reviews scopes that you can. Send a certified letter advising them of fraud, due to not honoring their warranty.

best of luck
 
First of all I want to thank the member that sent us this link so that we have the opportunity to defend ourselves..

Below is a picture of this customers scope (name withheld) that was sent back to us for a "warranty" claim. For reference, I laid a ring half on the tube just so you can see how badly the scope tube was actually pinched/crunched from the customers rings. As you can see, the center of the ring is making contact with the scope tube but there are large gaps on both sides of that (yes, its pinched/crunched that bad).. BTW, its like this on both tube sections. . The tube is buckled so bad that I'm not even sure how anyone could remount this scope and still get adequate ring contact on the tube again.. How are we responsible for this? We understand rings can leave "witness" marks and witness marks don't void the warranty but this is way beyond a witness mark and it clearly states in the paperwork that comes with each scope "Your scope is not covered by the warranty if damage results from improper installation".. Unfortunately, its bogus claims like this (product and company defamation), and the untruthful stories behind it on forums that just helps drive the cost of products up because we have to spend time an money following up on them.. I'm sorry but were not going to make other customers pay for things like this by having to raise the price of our products to cover damage caused by the user.. I wish Ford Motor Compnany would replace my truck when I backed into my trailer (wink)..


We do understand that accidents can happen so unlike many other brands we have a trade-in program in place that allows our customers to send us their damaged scope and trade it in for a new replacement at a greatly reduced price (far less than having to pay retail again). We offered the trade-in program to this customer but he declined so we shipped the scope back to the customer (as he requested) and did it at our own expense (there was no $12 payment included with his return to cover the return S/H fees as stated in our warranty)..


CrunchedTube1.jpg
 
From MOC:
(there was no $12 payment included with his return to cover the return S/H fees as stated in our warranty)..
On Mueller's warranty page:
Return with a check or money order in the amount of $12.00 if the product was purchases more than 30 days from the date being returned to cover handling and return postage and insurance charges. If the product is being returned for warranty work with-in 30 days of purchased date, Mueller Optics will cover these charges. As defined by federal law, this is a limited Warranty.
The scope was still inside the 30 day window. Do you even know your warranty policies?

Also please understand the scope had a defect prior to mounting and Mueller does not stand behind their products. Every review of the scope I posted before I sent it in explained the defect I had out of the box.

Here is a link to Midway USA where I left the review on the bottom the same day I received the scope. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=692084#productTabReviews

Received my Mueller scope today. The scope is built well and the glass is pretty nice. The scope functioned very well throughout the power band, and focused pretty well too. But my scope looks like it will be going back to Mueller, there seems to be an imperfection or foreign object stuck in the glass inside the scope. Such a shame I really like this scope but shoddy QC is going to delay my use of this scope until I get another one back from Mueller.

Also what kind of crappy paint are they using that it chips off inside the scope?
 
We offered the trade-in program to this customer but he declined so we shipped the scope back to the customer (as he requested) and did it at our own expense (there was no $12 payment included with his return to cover the return S/H fees as stated in our warranty)..


Am I the only one who finds it fishy that Mueller took pictures of Mags' scope, documenting damage, then sent it back to Mags? All this before the Mueller rep joined and posted on THR.
 
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