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Multiple Users, One Rifle: Info on Zero

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by DontBurnMyFlag, Jul 26, 2008.

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  1. DontBurnMyFlag

    DontBurnMyFlag Member

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    Hey all,

    Im trying my best to persuade my department to issue AR15's to all members of the patrol unit, not just SWAT members. I have a question in regards to that.

    First off, my department does not have the funds to supply every officer with their own weapon. There are 2 available as of right now and each shift only has 2 guys on. So it works out. The main concern from some others is that each person will have a different zero on the weapon. Forgive me if I dont use the correct terms.

    If the weapon is zeroed to the one officer who is 6'2 and is then passed on to the next officer on the next shift who is 6'0, will there be a problem in POA/POI. Both officers have been trained the exact way, exercise the exact stance, both are using iron sights and both wont be engaging targets in a use of force scenario outside of 100 yards.

    in a situation in which an armed suspect was holding someone hostage, and precision shooting would be required, these officers would not be the ones taking the shot. I am merely talking about hitting a man sized target in the torso to incapicitate.

    Thanks for your input.

    Also, please please please dont let this spiral out of control about why officers need military weapons, or JBTs, or police use of force or the training involved. This is a simple question and has nothing at all to do with politics or RKBA. Thank you. :)
     
  2. gbran

    gbran Member

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    Sight adjustment has nothing to do with height of shooter(s).
     
  3. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    You could have each officer zero the rifle and record his zero on a card, laminate it and set his zero on the sights each shift. This sounds fine in theory, but in practice the officers won't do it. They will get in a hurry as they pass the rifle between shift changes.

    My old department just had the best shooters zero the rifles once and has not had any problems with any officer not being able to qualify with someone elses zero on the weapon.. You're only looking at 100 yards and closer.

    HTH
    Jeff
     
  4. M203Sniper

    M203Sniper member

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    Have you considered an EOtech sight?
     
  5. HB

    HB Member

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    Maybe, but not everybody's build is the same, meaning the sights will be zeroed for the head position of one shooter. Changes in head position mean missed shots, but it wouldn't be a problem in most/every situation under 100 yards and rather large targets
     
  6. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Stick a 1.5x scope on it.

    If you need more, you shouldn't be shooting.
     
  7. DontBurnMyFlag

    DontBurnMyFlag Member

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    thanks for the information guys.

    The brass of the department will not allow magnifying optics on the weapons. And complacent officers will not want to drop 400+ bucks for an EOtech or Aimpoint or something similar. its unfortunate.

    I like the idea in regards to the laminated cards. Ill pass the information along.

    Thanks alot guys.
     
  8. owlhoot

    owlhoot Member

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    Sighting in iron sights isn't that critical. After all, most people will buy a .22 rifle, share it with friends and family for years, and never touch the sights.

    The problem arises when people who cannot shoot start trying to adjust the sights to compensate for their trigger jerk, flinch, etc. Have someone who is a crack shot zero the rifles at 25 yards. Then leave the sights alone. I think you will find that it will shoot very close to the point of aim for everybody who has a little skill.
     
  9. tbtrout

    tbtrout Member

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    All of my rifles are zeroed for me. When I take others shooting , they use my rifles and hit the target no problem. This is with scopes and irons. I would have all of the Officers go to the range and see how they do without changing a thing.
     
  10. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    With iron sights and the ranges they will be used at, one zero is all that is needed. Your not shooting a scoped sniper rifle at several hundred yards.

    We have three Bushmaster Patrol rifles in our dept. They have one zero on them, adjusted by a firearms instructor. Every officer (15 in all) qualified with "a" rifle, with ranges from 100yds on down to 10yds.
     
  11. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    As long as I am familiar with the caliber and cartridge being shot if a rifles iron sights are on I can pick up any rifle and make good hits with it.
     
  12. Dbl0Kevin

    Dbl0Kevin Member

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    I always laugh when I hear people talking about how a rifle is zeroed in for THEM specifically and if you try to shoot it you'll be off. No matter where you position your head or how you hold a gun there's only one way to line up a circle and a post. The only variable is in point of aim. Some people place the front sight on different parts of the target and that's where you will find a difference. If everyone is trained to shoot center of mass you will be ok.

    My favorite quote of all time regarding M-16/AR-15 zeroing came from one of my drill sergeants at basic training. He said "now when you get your zero make sure you count your clicks and remember them that way if you ever have to pick up a rifle off the battlefield you can move the sights the same number of clicks and it will be zeroed to you......after all every rifle is made the same!"

    I had to turn away so he wouldn't see me laughing. :banghead:
     
  13. pappy

    pappy Member

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    I would think going to the range and practicing on a regular basis would be a much better way to ensure accuracy.
     
  14. Claude Clay

    Claude Clay Member

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    Dbl0
    and when you drive someone else's jeep make sure the bucket of steam is topped off.
    seriously:the sights don't know who is looking through them. sight at 75 yards to point of aim and instruct all thusly. be well.
     
  15. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    The only issue I can think of is that the officers may have different cheek welds. That would definitely effect point of impact; but not dramatically in the situation you describe.

    If they are using the same stance and cheek weld though, should not be an issue.
     
  16. redneckdan

    redneckdan Member

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    Different shooters do shoot different zeros....but it won't be evident in the situation you are talking about. Zero is determined by how the sights are lined up and also by how the shooter interacts with the weapon.
     
  17. mons meg

    mons meg Member

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    I always considered a zero to be a function of the mechanics of the individual rifle, where a dope was an adjustment made to an individual shooter to make POA=POI.
     
  18. Old Grump

    Old Grump Member

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    See sights different

    Its been my experience that most people are close but its more critical with pistol than rifle. You don't need 1/4 minute of angle at 100 yards to hit your intended target, thats for the sniper scope guys. The advice to have the best shooter sight in and everybody use that was solid.
     
  19. MisterPX

    MisterPX Member

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    As long as a good zero was put into the rifle, and any subsequent shooter has been trained how to shoot with the irons, then there's no issue. 25M to 300M, it's all good enough for gov't work.
     
  20. Bones11b

    Bones11b Member

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    If properly zeroed and all rifles are the same make and model you can use the method of remembering or writing down the "clicks" you need to adjust for your personal preference. This doesn't insure the rifle will be zeroed to you per say, but in theory it will bring the rifle to a point where it will be accurate for battle. This is based on my own personal experience and training. A good instructional series on zeroing for such use can be found here.
    http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/improvedbattlesightzero.msnw
     
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