Muzzleloading with cast bullets and accuracy.

[TacticalBacon]

So recently i purchased some black crush rib sabots made for a 50 cal muzzleloader and holds a .45 bullet.

Im shooting with 100 grains of white hot pellets
My cast bullet is a lee .452 SWC 230g
The muzzleloader is a traditions buckstalker

as this is my first time in this wheel house, My questions are...

What type of accuracy should i expect? i know there are many factors but assuming all things equel. what would be considered good accuracy for this type of perjectile and this load at decent hunting ranges IE. 100-300 yards ?

Would increasing to 150 grains of powder increase my accuracy or would there be negative effects being as it is a plastic sabot

How well does a sabot obterate and will consistency be a huge issue with this method vs a power belt

Lastly..

Would this method allow me to obtain higher velocities over a 50 cal power belt

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

First off you need to develop your loads. Just increasing the powder charge to 150 grns does not get you there. Start off with 50 grns of powder,shoot a 3 shot group at 50 yards, check accuracy. Increase by 5 grns and repeat. Keep increasing until you get the smallest group. This will be your accuracy load. Keep going until the group starts to open up. This is the max accuracy load. It will take some time and effort but once you get it done you will be a lot happier with the results. Each rifle is different and will like a different load. Consistency is the key. Don't change components during your testing.

 

[hawg]

What Jackrabbit said but you can't do that with pellets. If you're stuck on pellets instead of loose powder you're just going to have to try them and hope for the best.

 

[243winxb]

Hopefully, someone with the same rifle will help with load data.

 

[J-Bar]

I have no experience with black crush rib sabots, but I know some plastics don't play well with real black powder or BP substitutes. When using plastic shot cups in black powder shotshells in cowboy action competition, melted plastic would accumulate in the shotgun barrels, which had to be cleaned out. Frequency of cleaning varied depending on the cowboy's tolerance for the crud accumulating. Some cleaned after each stage, some waited until the end of the day.

Accuracy will degrade in a rifle if melted plastic builds up in your barrel. You will have to determine how many shots you can fire before it becomes a problem. Just something else to check as you develop your loads. Good luck and enjoy your range time!

(lots of ways to clean the crud out...could be a separate thread if you run into problems.)

 

[TacticalBacon]

I would like to say thank you all for your responses

I am familiar with building up loads and i took the rifle out last weekend and shot a good bit starting shooting groups with one pellet of white hot then 2 then 3

I would say that my original questions are more revolving around the perjectile itself and its delivery method vs other methods i have shot plenty of power belts and have killed many deer with them

But the wheel house of a saboted pistol bullet intrigued me as its cheap to get lead and cast more and the sabots are cheap per shot.

But i was unsure how reliable this perjectile is over other options and would it be reliable , predictable, and just as effective as say a powerbelt .50

I guess what im getting at has anyone used this method to hunt and how was the results and how is the relative accuracy compared to others

I know there are many factors like cleaning between shots and consistent loading but my questions are more catered to apples to apples comparison how does it stack up

 

[hawg]

I can't help with that since I don't use sabots. I'll be over here in the corner if you need me.

 

[paul harm]

Not sure what you mean by " But the wheel house of a saboted pistol bullet". Do you mean performence ? Most of us shoot loose black powder, and many just the round ball which is also cheap to make.

 

[hawg]

? Most of us shoot loose black powder, and many just the round ball which is also cheap to make.

This is true. There are a few of us that shoot inlines but if they haven't chimed in since your original post they probably aren't going to.

 

[TacticalBacon]

Not sure what you mean by " But the wheel house of a saboted pistol bullet". Do you mean performence ? Most of us shoot loose black powder, and many just the round ball which is also cheap to make.

I just ment that i have not experienced anyone shooting plastic saboted pistol bullets and there are very few videos online about it and they are not very detailed

My expectations are that this type of perjectile would function similar to a ball and wad only difference being that the wad is replaced with a plastic cup sabot (probably not correct term im sorry)

But i have also never experienced ball and wad loads and their behavior characteristics in flight

So by wheel house im referring to the use of the perjectile and its behavior in flight

 

[TacticalBacon]

This is true. There are a few of us that shoot inlines but if they haven't chimed in since your original post they probably aren't going to.

Well i kinda figured that would be the case as most muzzleloader shooter are either old school shooters with paper wads and ball with loose powder firing out of a replica piece or a antique or inline shooters who just shoot powerbelts and pellets

Originally when i bought my muzzleloader i just kept things simple and bought .50 powerbelts and triple 7 pellets or white hots but as prices have increased and i started reloading my own cartridges and casting my own bullets i started to think could i hunt with a 45 acp bullet fired from a inline muzzleloader.

My thoughts are smaller perjectile equels more velocity while also .452 is a decent size perjectile to get smacked with at rifle velocitys and being as its cast lead WW alloy it will definitely have penitration but my curiositys start with,

but is it viable as a perjectile when fired using a plastic sabot?
will it obterate will it stabilize and fly true "ish"? or is it only viable at short range where stability is less of a factor and pure energy is keeping it true?

I hsve tested it at 50 yard and i can ring a 1 foot diameter steel gong consistently with my groups staying within 3 -4 inches of one another

But im wondering if its just luck or the fact that im so close the flight behavior is not yet a real defineing factor i dont have the ability to streach the range put short of taking it to my hunting spot that has a lane of about 400 yards

Im just wondering if anyone else has any experience in the method im trying and what are their experiences and what reasonable expectations should i set for myself doing it like this

 

[hawg]

I have no clue. Like I said if none of the inliners have chimed in by now they're not likely to. You may have to find a forum that caters to inlines.

 

[woodnbow]

Modern muzzleloaders is where I’d go… very knowledgeable crew there.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

A couple of things to think about, rifling twist... usually pretty slow for a round ball shooter. Length of the projectile, again twist rate will have an effect. Weight of said bullet, 50 cal ball weighs in around 180 grns, what weight of pistol bullet are you shooting? It's gonna take some range time and load development to get it figured out. I have some sabots and 45 cal bullets for shooting a 50 but have not played with them. If and when I get the opportunity I will do so and get back to you with a range report.

 

[Patocazador]

I have a Sile Hawken Hunter with a 1:28 twist. Because of the fast twist I tried different sabot-bullet combinations. I finally found my "golden" load. 90 gr. of 3F with a crushed rib sabot and a 260 gr. PT Gold bullet. It's accurate past 100 yards. I noticed no build-up of plastic from the sabot probably because they are 'engineered' with a type that is less sensitive to heat.

However, I continue to hunt with round balls, REALs, maxi-balls, etc. in my other muzzleloaders. The only inline I have is a CVA Optima pistol which almost never gets used. Of course my flintlocks only get 3F GOEX and prb's.

 

[.38 Special]

I can't answer much of this, but will point out that the OP has what amounts to a .460 S&W: a 230 grain bullet at roughly 2000 fps. It is most emphatically not a 300 or 400 yard load. It really is not even a 200 yard load, despite the claims of a few skilled and lucky fellows (and a big pack of liars).

I personally would limit myself to an absolute maximum of 150 shots on game - and at nothing larger than a middling whitetail - and would prefer much closer.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I personally would limit myself to an absolute maximum of 150 shots on game

I agree, if you don't hit it after 150 shots, that would be a good time to stop.

I don't see how a cast bullet would shoot any differently than any other bullet wrapped in plastic. I believe the length of the bullet will determine how well it is stabilized, and therefore how well it will shoot. As far as terminal performance, all the deer I have shot with cast bullets out of a .44 Magnum have fallen over dead. Being wrapped in plastic, one could use a very soft or pure lead, and get great expansion. If using a hard cast bullet I'd go with something that had a wide flat metplat. However, with no chance of leading the barrel, I think soft lead would be a better choice.

 

[.38 Special]

My proof reader is such a lazy so-and-so.

 

[Slamfire]

I can't answer much of this, but will point out that the OP has what amounts to a .460 S&W: a 230 grain bullet at roughly 2000 fps. It is most emphatically not a 300 or 400 yard load. It really is not even a 200 yard load, despite the claims of a few skilled and lucky fellows (and a big pack of liars).

I personally would limit myself to an absolute maximum of 150 shots on game - and at nothing larger than a middling whitetail - and would prefer much closer.

Until bullets are shot on paper at distance, you don't know if they tumble before they get there. It was always known that the 168 SMK would tumble out of a 30-06 or 308 Win before it reached 1000 yards, but it was a real surprise to find out that 190 SMK's tumbled between 300 yards and 600 yards.

Shot well at 300 yards



tumbled at 600 yards





I have had a number of rifle bullets, a at least three flat based, some boat tail, that tumbled before they reached 600 yards. That was a surprise as the in print guys never mention this. The 2700 Bullseye Pistol shooters told me, that I needed to keep 148 LWC's at 740 fps or they will tumble before 50 yards, so pistol bullets tumble at some velocities.

Apparently many rifle bullets become unstable when they drop from super sonic to sub subsonic. There are good bullets, such as the 175 SMK and 155 Palma types that don't tumble during the transition.





I am not sure these 170 grain bullets were stable at 300 yards, out of a 30-30.

OK at 200 yards





all over the place at 300 yards. Maybe some are tumbling?




A big, chunky, ballistically inefficient pistol bullet, I would just assume it will tumble end over end when it reaches a low velocity down range. And that is not going to be that far down range either.