My improved Colt Cartridge works and Remington .36 conical

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TheOutlawKid

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Well as some of you all may know i am a huge fan of the .36 cal colt navy and its history and im even a bigger fan of conicals with wide meplats and paper cartridges. Back in the 1850s-1870s Colt and Remington both made molds to sell with their guns and the molds usually consisted of a round ball with a pointed conical. Colts conical had a grease groove while remingtons conical didnt. I had accurate molds make me a mold with a design similar to those pointed conicals only they have flat wide meplats instead of the traditional point. The wide meplats measure .255 for my colt cartridge works design and .265 for my remington copy. The colt design (the one with a grease groove) measure .500 inches tall and .380 at the widest and weighs 140 grains, while the remington type design (no grease groove) is .480 tall , .380 wide, and weighs 136 grains. Both , like the originals, have a heel so that a paper cartridge can be attached. I havent tried these out but gave some to a friend to try and said they were more accurate than round ball and hit with authority. Very comparable to kaidos .36 conical as far as accuracy goes...and we know that design is more accurate than round ball. Heres some pics of my new design ... 20200315_165745.jpg 20200315_170005.jpg
Heres some "remington" design as a paper cartridge..
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My customized version of a "colt cartridge works" design as paper cartridge 20200315_170402.jpg 20200315_170025.jpg
 
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Well, Outlaw Kid, looks like you came up with another nice design. I also like the wide meplat, especially on a .36 as they really help with the knock-down target at Cowboy shoots. What are your mold numbers at Accurate? I just ordered another mold from Tom(just came in last week), and I think the poor guy is probably tired of hearing from me!
 
Well, Outlaw Kid, looks like you came up with another nice design. I also like the wide meplat, especially on a .36 as they really help with the knock-down target at Cowboy shoots. What are your mold numbers at Accurate? I just ordered another mold from Tom(just came in last week), and I think the poor guy is probably tired of hearing from me!

Thank you Mr.Navy Six for the kind words...and the designs are 38-136Z is my customized colt cartridge works design and 38-130S is my custom remington design. Although the 38-136Z had some last minute changes...i made the heel taller..so instead of .07 tall its .10 tall so that it gave more "meat" to attach the paper cartridge...which also made the bottom band thinner which i also wanted.
 
That lube groove one looks good! How will you lube it?

Mr. Jim Bowie...i havent decided yet. Might just dip them down to the lube groove like the originals were...but in my paper cartridges i made in the picture i used a really thin hard lube disk between the powder and bullet. If you look closely you can kinda see it. I prefer thin lube disks as they desintegrate easily in the barrel and keep fouling soft. Ive posted a few times on how i make my thin lube disks from papertowels soaked in my preference of lube
 
Mr. Jim Bowie...i havent decided yet. Might just dip them down to the lube groove like the originals were...but in my paper cartridges i made in the picture i used a really thin hard lube disk between the powder and bullet. If you look closely you can kinda see it. I prefer thin lube disks as they desintegrate easily in the barrel and keep fouling soft. Ive posted a few times on how i make my thin lube disks from papertowels soaked in my preference of lube
Outlaw Kid, I started making paper cartridges in the manner you described in previous posts. I also inserted a lube disc made from Gatofeo's recipe and after several months I have seen absolutely no lube migration to contaminate the paper. The cartridges worked so well I decided to use your method exclusively. However, I then had to work out the paper dimensions for each type of gun as even those of the same caliber may take something different. It has sure kept me busy. I think I have final dimensions on: .44 Walker, .44 Dragoon, .44 Rogers&Spencer, .44 60 Army, .36 Colt Navies, .36 Colt Pockets, & .31 Colt Pocket-yes, I got carried away. This has created a whole new dimension from the usual brass cartridge reloading and I enjoy all aspects of both.
 
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Mr. Navy Six 2, i am very thankful for your kind words and am glad that someone has actually taken time out of their day to try out my methods. I personally was hesitant on posting any of my experiments that have shown me some success for fear that no one would bother to read the posts much less try it out themselves....so im happy to hear that my posts and pictures were of use to someone. All i want is to share and help my fellow black powder enthusiasts. Id sure love to see your take on my method of making paper cartridges. If you get a chance can you post some pictures? What paper are you using? I use RAW rolling papers most, but hair curling paper and other rolling paper brands will work just fine...and for my bottom paper disc , that the percussion cap bursts through, i mainly use the thin rice paper thats used as stuffing paper in gift bags or fine thin roilet paper like Scott brand. Are you also using my method of making my thin lube disks from paper ?towel? If so tell me how they work for you. Id also like to know how my straight walled paped cartridges are working for you.
 
Hi Mr Outlaw Them cartridges look great. Better than anything you can buy. How do you fold or otherwise close off the bottoms?You espically don't want any paper to block off the caps flame. Oh by the way I have sent you several pms on that other site,including one from Sunday. I wonder what's going on?
n.h.schmidt
 
Thank you Mr.Black Jack Shellac for the kind words! I have only received one from you on monday....did you send others? I had sent some to another friend of mine and i have yet to get a response and he is really good abour responding. I wonder if something is wrong with the other forums site? And i seal the bottoms with a thin single rice paper disk or single ply toilet paper. This will kind of explain or give you an idea...

First i make the paper tube of the cartridge by wrapping paper around a gauge pin. I use .360 or .362 for my .36 cal paper cartridges.
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I then scoot the tube up from the gauge pin so that i can fold it over...
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Then i fold over...
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Then i add glue to the folded over edge.. I use a nitrocellulose glue called Duco Cement but a glue stick works too if its all you got. Once glue is added i press the cartridge tube onto a thin rice paper disk or single ply toilet paper disk. I like using red rice paper disks so that i know visually that its the side that goes towards the nipple.
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This is what it looks like inside when the empty cartridge hull is completed...
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Heres the outside...
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heres some cartridges without a bullet so i can choose what bullet i want to use at the time. It consists of powder/wax paper disk/thin lube disk/wax paper disk/ thin cardboard disk. I really feel the cardboard disk really helps with the gas cutting and loss of pressure...especially when the lube disk is right behind it sealing the edges around it when its being fired down the barrel. 20191126_134903.jpg 20191126_135227.jpg 20191126_135338.jpg 20191126_135426.jpg
 
Yes the wax paper is to keep powder contamination in check. Although i use a very stiff lube (1:5 or 1:6 mutton tallow to wax by weight) its very unlikely it will contaminate powder but i do it just in case the cartridges come into contact with prolonged heat such as kept in the car on a sunny day. Not to mention i absolutely hate wasting powder and i hate placing any type of lube against the powder because the powder will stick to it and if you find some lube cookies or lubed felt wads after being shot out then you can usually find unburnt powder stuck to them...and i like consistency in my shots...so if i put 20 grains of powder by weight then i want to be sure the entire 20 grains is burnt up pushing out my bullet...not 19 grains burnt and 1 grain left unused stuck to my lube disk. I put a wax paper layer between my lube disk and cardboard disk too as i dont want the cardboard disk slowly obsorbing any lube..not mention it would undo any glue i placed on the cardboard disk thats used to seal my paper cartridge when i fold it over the cardboard disk to seal it shut. First i pour my powder into the cartridge hull then this is the order (from left to right) i place over the powder. Wax paper, thin lube disk, wax paper, card. This method takes almost no space at all.
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Outlaw Kid, I hope I can answer your questions but I apologize that I don't yet have the capability to post pictures. At any rate:
1. making the cartridges--I use the method you described using the pin gauges, which are necessary for consistency. I found that when applying glue to the side of the paper, I had to use a glue stick lightly as my attempts at using the Duco cement for this purpose ended in the paper sticking to the pin gauge. I don't load a projectile, just a powder and lube "sack".
2. the paper--I have been using untreated curling papers, both Tru Wave and Sally brand. The Sally papers appear a little thinner and stronger, in my opinion. The difference in thickness can affect the final size--and which size pin gauge to use--if you are trying for that snug final fit in the cylinder.
3. the bottom disc--again using your method with the rice(tissue-gift wrap) paper-- I use different colors for each caliber-- I cut them out using press mounted punches from Buffalo Arms. I was fortunate to already have these as I have been loading black powder cartridges for a long time.They produce clean cut wads(rice&wax paper, milk carton)very quickly. I again use your method to attach the bottom disc using the DUCO CEMENT, which is absolutely necessary and makes this style cartridge possible.
4. the lube disc--using Gatofeo' recipe, I've tried two methods. First is a straight lube disc that I cut out using the mouth of an appropriate size brass cartridge case. They are cut from a sheet of lube. I melt the lube and pour it into a baking pan that contains about 1/4 inch of water. Just pour the melted lube right on top of the water and let it spread out evenly. When cooled and hardened I place it in the freezer for a while and it pops right out of the pan in a nice flat, even sheet. The other method(using paper discs soaked in lube), I resorted to using those heavy, blue colored "Shop Towels" as my local Wal-Mart didn't carry the brand mentioned in one of your earlier posts. More testing this year to determine a preference.
5.why straight wall case?--I agree with your assessment that a straight walled case allows for more consistent compression using weighed charges. I also agree that making the cartridges a close, snug fit to the cylinder's chamber resulted in less(next to none) unburned paper residue, even though the paper is not nitrated. Here I ran into some complications. The dimensions you gave for the .36 Navies worked great. Then I decided to make some for the .44s. I worked out a nice, 26 gr. 3F Olde Enysford load that snugly fit the cylinder of a 60 Army, and then discovered that I couldn't load it as it wouldn't clear the barrel of the assembled gun! The same size just fell into the Rogers & Spencers. I had to use a smaller diameter pin gauge for the 60 Army, and of course different lengths(and fillers) for the Dragoon and Walker. That is why I mentioned the different dimensions for different guns of the same caliber.
Why go to all this trouble? I shoot at Cowboy matches and when using percussion pistols, loading these are much easier, at least for me. A better reason is these cartridges just work great! When using my previous tapered, cone shaped cartridges, I always got some paper residue no matter what I did.The only drawback is the straight walled cartridges take a bit more deliberate, careful loading, but the end results are worth it.
In conclusion, Outlaw Kid, I have found your experiments to be instructive and useful an hope you continue posting them.
 
Mr. Navy Six 2, thank you so much for that post. Im deeply humbled by the compliment. I too agree that different pin guage sizes should be used according to the thickness of paper and guns cylinder chamber sizes as not all chambers are the same size. I only use pietta .36 cal guns and they are pretty consistent with their .367-.368 chamber.sizes other than my reamed chambers of .375, so i can use .360 or .362 pin gauges for all of my paper cartridges and it fits snuggly in allmy chambers. Might i refer you to try out RAW rolling papers? They are thin yet strong and unbleached so they give a more authentic looking color. Im very glad my previous paper cartridge tutorial helped you. Also i make my thin lube disks by using a bread pan with a bottom measuring 4 inches x 8 inches, then cut a paper towel into 4x8 inches and place it at the bottom of the pan and place 20 grams of wax lube mix on top....place the bread pan over the electric stove on low heat and let the wax lube melt and be absorbed evenly by the paper towel. Once melted and obsorbed i let it cool and harden, then i remove the thin wax lube obsorbed paper towel and cut out my thin lube disks. I think i have posted pics somewhere on the forum showing the end result.
 
Here they are...found them in my files. This is what my lube sheet looks like and the end result. Notice how thin they are...thats all thats needed to keep fouling soft...and the thinness not only allows for using a harder lube, but also makes the disk easier to melt and coat the inside of the barrel...also takes up way less limited chamber space allowing more room for more powder and/or larger bullets.
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