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My new pistol real or repro?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by gasmandave, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    Just got this. Is it a Leeds & Rigdon?
    .44 Cal. IMG_20190813_152253.jpg IMG_20190813_152217.jpg IMG_20190813_152202.jpg IMG_20190813_152138.jpg IMG_20190813_151943.jpg IMG_20190813_151917.jpg IMG_20190813_152103.jpg
     
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  2. forward observer

    forward observer Member

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    First of all, to the best of my knowledge there were no .44 cal Leech and Rigdon revolvers produced---they were all made in .36 cal as were most if not all of the Southern made copies of northern manufactured guns with the only exception being the Texas manufactured "Dance Brothers" Dragoons.

    http://www.littlegun.info/arme americaine/revolver confedere/a revolver confedere leech gb.htm

    Note that unlike your pistol, all of the original Leech & Rigdon's shown have straight sided cylinders and matching frames while your example has a rebated cylinder, and matching frame. The rebated cylinder is how Colt was able to make the 1860 Army in .44 cal with out greatly increasing the over all mass of the revolver like the earlier over weight 1st, 2nd, and 3rd model Dragoons

    He did the same later with the 1862 pocket Navy and the Pocket Police allowing Colt to safely increase their caliber from .31 to .36.

    Secondly, the mark on the Cylinder of a star with the letters PN underneath is an Italian Proof mark. PN = Polvere Nera = Black Powder. This is an Italian proof house mark essentially saying proofed for black powder only. Guns made during the ACW would not have needed to be proofed for black powder only, since that was the only propellant available. Smokeless powder would not be available for another quarter of a century.

    I am pretty sure your gun is an Italian replica made in a non-authentic caliber.

    Cheers

    P.S. I'm guessing your pistol might have been owned by a ACW reenactor who simply aged it and removed some the the external Italian marks--simply to "defarb" it so it would look more authentic for a Confederate participant in the field. In other words it wasn't done with the idea to defraud since they left less obvious Italian marks alone
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  3. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    The circle with star an PN on cylinder is Italian 1st proof mark of Gardone and Brescia as of 1951. There should be other markings on it may be under lever on barrel.
     
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  4. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

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    Yeah, the "PN" nails it as a reproduction.
    Cool pistol though for sure.
     
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  5. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Similar to the colt 1860 44. Especially the cylinder.
     
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  6. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    Who ever defarb it did a fantastic job. Only the marks on the cylinder face and the fact it's a .44 would give it away. I got it as a reproduction so it wasn't mis-represented.

    What value do you give it?
     
  7. 25-20 WCF

    25-20 WCF Member

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    So you were just “testing” us then? Hmmm. I’d take it for 100,000 lire.


    .
     
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  8. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Like others, I say repro.
     
  9. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    No just trying to see if I paid a fair price. I like it even though.
     
  10. indy1919a4

    indy1919a4 Member

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    I do like the look of it, Who made it??? And did the original manufacturer stamp the macon GA on the top??
     
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  11. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    That's a problem I have. I have no clue of it's history, or who made it.
     
  12. denster

    denster Member

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    Repo for sure but it has a nice look to it. I'd values it around $140.
     
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  13. whughett

    whughett Member

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    What are the stampings in the right side frame below the water table and on the barrel flat over the wedge.one can also 64 in several locations. Marks of whoever did the defarbing. ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  14. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    "64" is 364 stamped in several locations, it's the serial number.
     
  15. Fingers McGee

    Fingers McGee Member

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    Leech and Rigdons are iron framed .36 caliber revolvers, whereas this is a brass framed repro of a Griswold and Gunnison made by Pietta in a non historically accurate .44 cal. The trumpet like grip frame that is notched in the backstrap for the shoulder stock gives it away. The defarbing job is excellent though. It would pass the 10 foot rule.
     
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  16. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    What is the 10 foot rule?

    If you look at it from 10 foot away it looks original?
     
  17. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    I think it was made up for a
    re-enactor.
     
  18. Flintshooter

    Flintshooter Member

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    Lodgewood defarbs Griswold and Gunnison. Check with them.
     
  19. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

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    I've owned plenty of C&B revolvers of most flavors over the years including quite a few brass frames.
    My first revolver was a Armi San Marco, mostly fictional marketing hype described as a, Confederate .44 Cal 1851 brass framed Colt Navy. That's the one that got me hooked, and it exploded from there. I still have it and likely wont ever part with it.
    A few years ago I thinned out my collection and sold most of the brass frame revolvers that we historically inaccurate (along with some others).
    I listed them on Gunbroker, and started the brass frames at $150 plus shipping and all of them sold. I think only 1 or 2 sold for over $200.
    With the "work" that's been done to the OP's revolver, some folks will think it adds value, (maybe significantly) others would prefer a pristine factory new specimen.
    I would value it at $150-$200 in the right market plus or minus what you think of the work that's been done.
    Unfortunately, in my local market it wouldn't be easy to get even $50 for it since most folks don't have any interest in C&B. That's why I sold mine on Gunbroker.
     
  20. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    I sent them pictures and asked if they knew about it.
    I did the same with goonsgunworks.
     
  21. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    Mike Brackett (goon/.45 Dragoon) does no defarbing.

    Here is what your gun looked like when new (before the defarbing/antiquing). Fingers (post #15) is absolutely correct that it is a Pietta "tail" grip assembly, which is unmistakable. This is a stock Pietta photo of a date code BZ/2005 1851 Navy .44 brasser.

    1851-Navy-Brass-R.jpg

    Pietta revolvers (pre-2015) had the "tail" assembly.

    For comparison (my guns):

    Pietta CM/2014 grip (top)
    Pietta CN/2015 grip (bottom)

    Note the size of the shoulder stock attachment "divot" and the location of the screw.

    Pietta-1851-Navy-Tail-Non-tail.jpg

    Just for historical reference, Leech & Rigdon did not put serial numbers on the right sides of the frame, barrel lug, and the cylinder. Griswold & Gunnison did that, but they, too, never made a .44 revolver while producing over 3600 .36 revolvers on a brass frame.

    G&G was also located much closer to Macon than L&R ever was.

    I think the defarber was creating a faux G&G. Did the seller say it was a L&R or did you just assume it was?

    Hope you did not break the bank on this one. Cabela's everyday price is $200 NIB.

    Regards,

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  22. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    Kinda broke the bank. Embarrassed to say how much I paid. Seller said a reproduction leech & Rigdon.
     
  23. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    Dave,

    You are definitely not the first person to have been taken/duped by defarbed/antiqued replicas, nor will you be the last. L&R guns had iron frames, and the repros have steel frames, but definitely not brass. I am reminded of a guy who bought, at auction from a small Southern Michigan auction house (I will not name it) a supposed real L.E. Tucker and Sons (Lancaster TX) .36 revolver that copied a Colt 1851 Navy during the ACW. It was clearly a replica produced either by ASM or Uberti in the early 1970's that had been defarbed/antiqued, and the name was stamped on top of the barrel lug in modern fonts as opposed to the real deal that was stamped with individual, somewhat cursive stamps.

    The individual got into a bidding war with others and paid $2200 (plus 10% auction house fees) for it. I am sure he was very pleased until he got home, researched it, and found he bought a $300 repro.

    This is why I thoroughly, severely, disdain defarbed guns, unless clearly marked as a repro.

    I am only going to reiterate what other folks have said repeatedly here and on other forums: reading and comprehension! Obtain books that will give at least an insight to whatever gun you want to own. There are many, especially concerning Confederate original revolvers.

    If you PM me I will give you a list of many that I have.

    I collect primarily Pietta 1851 Navy .36 "type" revolvers (8) since I am an old fart on SS and can hardly look at an original moneywise. That said, I like my repros to look like they would have (new) in the ACW. I have no idea why re-enactors want a gun that looks 150 years old when their uniforms don't look 150 years old.

    My Pietta Griswold & Gunnison and Rigdon & Ansley (same as the L&R but with a 12-stop-slot cylinder):

    Pietta-Rigdon-Ansley-Pietta-G-G.jpg

    Regards,

    Jim
     
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  24. gasmandave

    gasmandave Member

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    When I first saw the pistol at my LGS I thought it was a G&G but was told that I would be a Leech & Rigdon. I was also told that it was NOT an original but a reproduction that had been defarb for re-ennacting ACW.

    So as far as that goes it was NEVER misrepresented.

    I liked it so I bought it.

    However I probably paid about $100. More than it's worth.

    Thanks for everyone's help.
     
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  25. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    If you only paid $100 you did not come close to breaking the bank! IMO, I would have bought it for that if it functions; if not, it is a Pietta and parts are readily available. A defarb oddity for sure, but a bit of time was spent on it.

    Would you sell it to me to get your money back? It would fit well in my Pietta collection of 1851 Navies.I even have a place for it in one of my wood display cases. I have cash money. PM me if interested.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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