My pocket gun search revisted

[chaim]

A little over a month ago I posted asking advice in my pocket gun search. While the search was on hold for a little while (work has been busy), I've started looking again and I've made a few adjustments.

I am leaning away from the .380 guns since there are quite a few small, pocketable, 9's and 40's out there and I'd just feel more comfortable with the more capable caliber (especially since, as I stated in my previous thread, my pocket gun tends to be my primary in actual practice and attitude and my IWB gun, when I have it, is really my backup). I doubt there would be many times that something like a Kel-tec PF9 or P11 would be too big and I'd really need to move down to something in P3AT or Ruger LCP territory.

My usual dress is casual slacks and a nice button down shirt or polo (being a teacher I dress "business casual" at work). I often wear jeans and a polo when off work, and I sometimes wear dress slacks or a suit. I rarely wear shorts, usually only when working out or camping. I am a big guy (nearly 6' tall, around 300LBS) so my pockets are usually pretty big (with the exception of some of the dress slacks). I can always pocket carry my 15oz S&W 442 with little to no problem.

So my gun choices:

-Glock 27 or 26. It is similar in size to my Taurus Millennium Pro (it is just a tad larger in most measurements, but barely). However, the height of the gun from top of the slide to base of the butt is almost an inch shorter. That is pretty significant and may be enough to make a big difference in the pocket. Also, this is probably the only gun I'm considering that would be comfortable to shoot in .40S&W and it would probably be the most comfortable in 9mm so it would get much more practice time than many of my other choices (not an insignificant issue). My main concern is that, like my Taurus, it may be just a tad big for this purpose (it would be a "pocketable" gun, but not really a pocket gun). Locally these seem to run $580-600 new and around $500-550 used.

-Walther PPS in 9mm or .40S&W. This thing is narrow at .91" for the pistol itself and 1.04" including the levers (being this narrow would probably solve the issue of a gun shaped lump in the pocket). OAL, height and weight are just a tad more than the Glock (.01", .23" and 1.05oz respectively). Does anyone own one in .40S&W and can give some feedback on how comfortable it is to shoot? I can get one around here for a tad over $700.

-Kahr PM9 or PM40. I was mainly thinking about the PM9 because most of the problems I see with Kahr polymer pistols and smaller pistols seem to be their 40's. Also, I think the .40 in such as small pistol may be a bit much for practice time (I doubt it would be much fun to shoot). On the other hand, I love .40S&W and a local dealer has a "factory test fired" model for $680 (around here most PM9s and PM40s seem to run in the $700-800 range). Either way, they are quite small for a good defensive caliber and would certainly handle the pocket carry role quite well. On the other hand, even at $680 they are a bit more than I really want to spend right now (and usually the PM9 and PM40 run over $700 around here).

-Kel-tec PF9 or P11. Kel-tecs aren't easy to find around here but I know of three dealers that have them. One has both right now but is way overpriced ($399 for either). Another that is about an hour and a half away often carries them, but they are often sold out. There is one fairly nearby that has a used PF9 for $299 and a new chromed slide P11 for $360 right now. Both would make good pocket pistols (they are quite small and light- under 15oz, well under for the PF9, an inch or less wide, less than 6" long, etc). From what I've read the PF9 is a tad too narrow for 9mm to be comfortable and it can be pretty uncomfortable to shoot (I'm sure its better than my 442 shooting .38+P though). I'm not about to pay the inflated $399 at the closest dealer. I'm not sure I want to buy used (not at $299 anyway) for a Kel-tec, and I'm not sure I want to pay extra for a chrome slide since I don't carry outside the house often (I live in MD so only when out of state) and when carrying at home I won't be sweating very often so the chrome may not be a price-efficient option. But the other dealer is quite a distance away and doesn't always have one or more of the Kel-tec models.


--So, who carries one of these options using pocket carry? How does it work for you? What holster(s) do you use?

 

[chaim]

Oh, I also have a related question that involves typical carry laws (yes, I know they vary from state to state). When I put my Taurus PT140 Millennium Pro in my pocket, it fits, but in most of my pants there is a significant lump that if you know what to look for or take a close look most definitely looks in size and shape like a gun (unlike my S&W 442 that just looks like a lump of stuff). I know if your cover garment accidentally pulls up and shows your IWB gun that would be considered brandishing in most states. My question revolves around when the actual gun doesn't show- would having a lump in my pocket that is obviously a gun to anyone who looks closely (most people wouldn't) still be legal as long as the gun was completely covered? If it helps, the states where I usually carry on a FL non-resident permit are VA and PA (I'm thinking about replacing it with a UT permit so I can carry in MN as well since I'm there about once a year).

 

[Yo Mama]

I just shot my pf9 as I only shoot it about once a year, and I'd advise you shoot one before buying. They are not fun to shoot, but nice to carry.

 

[bigfatdave]

The price tag under the glass on those Kel-Tecs might move with some serious haggling.
I wouldn't worry about a used KT, their warranty service is pretty damn good.

The PPS is a superb pistol in either caliber, I'd go with the 9mm, it has more capacity.
It might be a bit heavy for pocket carry, but that's up to you, obviously. Extra mags are pricey, and Walther/S&W are being jerks shipping the PPS with not only one mag, but not the flush-fit mag, bulking up the pistol for no good reason.

Kahr makes a good product, I'm no expert on them.

Glocks are great to shoot if they fit your hand, but they sure don't fit mine, and they're too damn thick anyway, in my opinion.

Taurus is making a slim 9mm, if you dig your current Taurus, you should check it out.

Brief accidental exposure is not "brandishing".
Anyone who tells you it is can be written off as an idiot, and anyone who calls in such a "crime" is one also. Don't dignify such attitudes by mis-using the word .. just conceal your pistol better, it isn't hard

 

[chaim]

Dave, I think Taurus makes a good gun, but the PT709 is not currently on my list. With any manufacturer, especially the more budget brands (like Taurus), I'd rather wait until a gun has been out a year or two to get the kinks out. Also, it is not yet approved for sale in MD so I have to wait for it to get on the MD State Police list of approved handguns (not all guns even get submitted for approval for sale in MD, but Taurus usually does submit their handguns). It will probably be another year until they are approved for sale in MD.

Brief accidental exposure is not "brandishing".

So, you are saying that a lump in the pocket that is obviously a gun should be OK in most states?

 

[TexanAviator]

If anybody asks about a lump in your pocket it is:

A. None of their business
B. An insulin pump

And I cannot help with your choices but I regularly pocket carry a S&W 340pd in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster. They make the Nemesis for those options you posted and I would have to strongly recommend it.

 

[G27RR]

I can't speak for poclet carrying it because @ haven't tried it, but I often shoot 50-100 rounds at a time through the Glock 27 and in my opinion it shoots very accurately and doesn't bother me in the least even one handed. Nothing like a snubby .357 or .38.

 

[psyopspec]

I owned and carried a PM9 for the better part of a year. It functioned flawlessly. That is, until I drew it and fired for the first time outside of the context of shooting ranges and practice. Not serious work, just finishing off an animal I'd hit with my car on a country road. Failed to eject. Couldn't trust it after that. I know my standards for a carry gun are strict, YMMV and all that applies.

I've since gone onto to an M&P 340SC as my pocket gun. I've been satisfied.

 

[M&PVolk]

After having pocket carried a Bersa .380 for a couple of weeks, I went to check the pistol and clean it. When racking the slide, it failed to return to battery. Investigation revealed issues with lint/gunk in the slide rails. This is to be expected, but I decided right then that I will never buy a semi-auto for pocket carry. I can't reliably have time to clean it every week, and I want one that will work when drawing from the pocket. Snubbies only for pocket carry for me.

 

[TheProf]

+1 on carrying only snubbies for pocket carry.

Some of you have read my experience with the new Sig P238....which is a mixed with good and bad. But for carrying..I must have 100% confidence. The LCP has such a long trigger pull that makes follow up shots difficult. The PM9 is a tad big for my pockets..
But the real incentive to go to pocket carry is when all is said and done...having "five for sure" is better than having "6 + 1" most of the time.

In terms of my experience:
Revolvers = 100% reliable
PM9 = 99% reliable
LCP = 99.9 % reliable
Sig P238 = mixed results (some due to faulty mag...) (But in the streets, I can't exactly tell the bad guy to wait and give me a break because of a faulty mag...)

I may decide on carrying a snubbie as my main gun...and the LCP with two spare mags as back-up.

 

[searcher451]

I've got a Walther PPS in 9mm and another in .40 S&W. The gun is the real deal, but I still find it too hefty to pocket-carry unless I'm dressing like a lumberjack -- something I just don't do. It's a great personal defense handgun, however, and works like a dream with an IWB holster (I use High Noon's Split Decision).

 

[m2steven]

I have a Kahr pm9, the glock 26, and a Taurus 709 Slim. The glock 26 is a bit big for pocket carry if you have tight pants. It's kind of thick. Otherwise the size is nice. The kahr is a good pocket gun even in relatively tight jeans. With most of these guns, the bigger the pocket the better.

The Taurus Slim is much like the PPS. It's not small, but it's so slim that it carries really better than the pm9. Again, you probably want a little looser pocket. The only drawback about the Kahr is that if it's not in a pocket holster, it looks like pistol in your pants. That may or may not be a good thing

 

[gbran]

PM9 smallest, easiest to pocket cary, 6+1 or 7+1 with extended mag.
Smith Airweight, pretty small, different shape, 5 shots.
G26, biggest of the bunch, but 10+1 (CA) yet still just able to pocket carry and is usually my daily carry.
I carry a 1911 when weather and clothes allow.

 

[John Wayne]

Had a Millenium Pro PT-140 which was reliable and pocketable. Having it smack your leg when you walked and trying to get it out of said pocket in a hurry were different matters entirely.

Also had a P3AT and shot quite well with it. Never was anything close to 100% reliable though, I'd say best it did was 75% even after a trip to the factory.

Sold both, now have a SW 442 Airweight. Trigger takes quite a lot of practice to smooth out and get used to, but once you do these guns will surprise you in the accuracy department. Only 5 rounds but no snags, 15 oz. and all 5 are gonna go "bang."

 

[gatorjames85]

I carry a PF-9 in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster. It is actually the holster for the P11/PPS/709, but it works pretty well after I cut some of the material away from the grip. It prints pretty obviously to me, but my wife (who is a shooter/CWL holder) didn't notice that I was carrying until I told her. It seems like most people aren't paying enough attention to have any idea.

 

[Lou22]

I have a P3AT, PM9 and S&W 642 snubbie that I pocket carry. I've reached the same conclusions as other posters: the 642 is 100% reliable and fits in all my slacks front pockets, and the PM9 at the range is 100% reliable but I prefer a revolver for carry. The P3AT is somewhat less reliable than the PM9, but is tiny. Therefore I only carry it in the smallest of pockets where the others won't fit.

Lou

 

[Phydeaux642]

Some of you guys must have huge pockets. I haven't tried the Kahr PM9 (I can't gring myself to spend $650-$700 on one) but I can see it as a definite pocket gun. Others, like the Kel-tec PF9 or P11, the G26, etc., seem way to large to me. My pockets are large and none of those will fit comfortably while in a pocket holster. I have a P11 (shorter than a PF9 but a little thicker) and it's a no go for pocket carry for me. I pocket carry a 642 in a Mika holster and it just disappears. YMMV.

I am, however, picking up a Sig P238 just for the cool factor and may pocket carry it once in awhile.

It prints pretty obviously to me, but my wife (who is a shooter/CWL holder) didn't notice that I was carrying until I told her. It seems like most people aren't paying enough attention to have any idea.

I think people overthink this. Most people don't go around staring at another person's crotch. At least I hope not.

 

[chaim]

Folks, thanks for the revolver recommendations, but right now I'm looking for a carry auto. I am a revolver fan and I do have 2 J-frame sized revolvers (a S&W 442 which is often pocket carried and a Taurus 85CH). Their shape is such they leave a rather indistinguishable lump in the pocket and not the very obviously a gun's two rectangles like my autos, the only one that doesn't leave a noticeable lump is my NAA Guardian .32 and I want a more substantial caliber (hence, my looking for a better auto pocket pistol). I want an auto as an additional (more powerful) option, I live in MD (a non-CCW state), when I am somewhere I can carry (or when I carry at home) I will still often carry the 442, this will not be an EDC. So, taking it apart periodically to clean the rails of lint won't be a big deal. Heck, even if it does become an EDC down the road (I do carry at home, and I may move to VA or MN in a couple years) it isn't that big a deal to remove the slide and clean the rails and maybe blow some compressed air into the "innards" of the gun once or twice a week to preserve functionality.

 

[chaim]

Oh, the lint discussions reminded me (I forgot to mention it in my original post), when I pocket carry an auto I usually don't like to have too much oil. I use Remington Dry Lube (teflon) on most parts and only the smallest dab of oil or grease on the rails (after spraying some Dry Lube there as well) to minimize issues with lint. So, which of these guns would work better running relatively dry and which (if any) prefer a heavy layer of oil or grease to work properly?

 

[bigfatdave]

My PPS runs happily with only the lightest layer of grease on the rails.
It doesn't pick up much lint IWB in an open-bottom holster, I imagine it wouldn't pick up too much in a closed pocket holster, if it was a good fit.

Still more of an IWB pistol than a pocket pistol, though.

 

[Landpimp]

if those are your choices.......then the PM9 hands down, if your open to a wheelguns, S&W airwight(Centenial only for pocket carry) is IMOP(and I see other) better or at least an option I would look at

I own all the guns above(and more), I carry a 340PD(at least as one of) pocket carried it for 4-5 years.....its about as good as it gets.

 

[WRGADog]

my recommendation

Go with the PM9. It is light weight, easy to conceal, and functions flawlessly after the breakin period. I carry mine in my pocket daily. I also own a PPS and it too is a great gun, but not a pocket pistol IMO as it is too heavy. The pps is much better suited for IWB carry. Another great pocket pistol is the S&W J-frame. I own a S&W 340PD 357 mag, great gun to carry at ~12 ounces, but absolutely brutal to shoot with 357 magnum rounds. An even smaller choice would be the Khar P380 it is smaller and lighter than the PM9. I just prefer the larger caliber.

 

[Quoheleth]

Had a PF9. Right: not much fun to shoot a whole lot, but it's no worse than a .357 snubbie. FWIW, it ran 100% for the previous owner and then me.

I traded it this summer for something else, in part because I found myself really loving my LCR (still do).

I bought it back last week from the guy, partly because he needed the $ for medical bills, partly because I wanted a flatter gun than the revolver. (FWIW, he ran another 100 or so rounds through it flawlessly). Right now, I have a Blackhawk #1 pocket holster I use for both the LCR and PF9. I'm not crazy about it, but it works. I'm planning on getting an ankle rig soon. Wife & I are hitting a couple formal Christmas/New Year engagements in the next three weeks and I don't want a gun in my pocket for those awkward hug moments. A LCP might be a better ankle choice, but ammo is still a problem on my side of Houston and right now I don't have time to run around looking for the good stuff.

Q

 

[MikePaiN]

After two years I gave up on trying to shoot the PF9 and making go where I wanted, the trigger just plain stunk. After trying a PM40, I recently started carrying a Taurus PT709 Slim ...it is a fantastic CCW with a great trigger that's almost as easy to shoot as a full size. Since the Slim is off your list, IMHO if I was looking for a pocket pistol in the size range you have listed I'd go for a Ruger LCR

 

[MCgunner]

I have a P11 and can put 10 rounds into 3.5" off the bench at 25 yards or knock down 6 of 8 on the average (6 of 6 if I slow down) 6" plates off hand at 25 yards. It ain't the hardware, it's the software. DA takes practice. The practice is worth it to me to carry a safe gun. I don't want a 4 lb near single action trigger with no safety pointin' at my boys, thanks. I'll carry my revolver before I do that. I've not shot the PT709, but I'm thinkin' Glock trigger here. Scary even if carried in a holster which I do.