My problem (as a person working in the industry) with GunBroker

[bikerdoc]

I work p/t in an LGS.
all of the above is why we don't buy guns. We only do consignment, with 10% fee. And we do widows for free.
If Skippy Mcdelusional wants to list his consignment at an unreasonable price despite our best evaluation, we will let it languish til he gets a clue and lowers, the price

 

[FFGColorado]

So, as a person whose job it is to buy and sell guns I've noticed a trend in both buyers and sellers (but mostly people selling/trying to get us to buy their gun).

That trend is to look the gun up on GunBroker, take a cursory glance at the prices there and assume that is the worth of their firearm.

What I feel is part of the problem, and please, I'd like to start a civil discussion here, is that many people don't realize that GunBroker is a lot like eBay in that a seller can ask literally any price he/she/they feel like BUT that DOESN'T mean the seller will actually fetch that price. I think a lot of people who use GunBroker to find a value for their gun don't take this into consideration and assume that a seller's asking price must be what the guns are currently going for without digging further to see what the guns actually consistently SELL for.

What that further compounds the issue is people don't realize that in order to re-sell a gun at what it's worth (and at a fair enough price to move the inventory in a reasonable amount of time) the seller is going to, naturally, offer less than a gun might be worth.

I think there's a shift that needs to happen and it starts with the proper use of sites like GunBroker (it's only one aspect of the disconnect between buyers and sellers but I think it plays a large part).

What's your take?

This has been happening as long as there's been discount mail order catalogs, now the interweb. I have been in the bicycle industry for decades. It used to be that a 'customer' came in with some sort of mail order catalog and squawk about a price of something..now they come in with a tablet, call up some sort of some widget on ebay or MO sites, and do the same thing. It's not worth it to try to explain margin, fixed costs, etc, etc..AND what sells or is offered on ebay isn't the 'price'...

'Needs to happen', don't hold your breath.'Proper' use of sites like GunBroker'..that's funny.

 

[JONWILL]

Gunbroker is the only place I know of to find the selling prices of a certain gun.

The Blue Book is so outdated it is no relevant anymore

But people also need to add in the shipping and transfer costs if they buy the gun.

That normally adds $20 -$50 to the selling price

 

[huntsman]

^ so what made the blue book outdated? Antidotal raw data from gunbroker?

At the risk of sounding trite “value” is ultimately set by the buyer, you get uneducated buyers with the desire to buy (regardless of value)
Leads to unrealistic prices set.

The blue book was the governor on the throttle,

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Skippy Mcdelusional

LOL! There's a new one!

It really is a shame the LGS you are working at has had to do this, because I've always had such good experiences with trades to mine.

I always say when I'm telling them what I'm looking to get out of them "As always, I know you need to turn a decent profit, so if I'm out of line on what I'm asking, just tell me and we'll talk." The owner seems to appreciate it, and he has told me many times my asking prices are always quite reasonable. I'm sure a bit of it is that they are trying to keep me happy and coming back also, and they will.

Come to think of it, the last few times I've bought a gun there I've had trade ins. I think next time I'll just go in and buy something outright. I'm guessing they aren't hurting though for business.

 

[daniel craig]

^ so what made the blue book outdated? Antidotal raw data from gunbroker?

At the risk of sounding trite “value” is ultimately set by the buyer, you get uneducated buyers with the desire to buy (regardless of value)
Leads to unrealistic prices set.

The blue book was the governor on the throttle,

That's basic capitalism. Things are only worth what people are willing to buy them for.

 

[buck460XVR]

Good on you to step aside. As far as the other two, if I was the shop owner or manager, I'd be upset that other people were making business propositions in front of me inside my shop. The other "buyer" should wait until the seller has physically walked away from the negotiation process with the employee.

The "other" did not make an offer originally. He only informed the seller when he heard the clerks offer, that it was unrealistically low. It was at this the clerk took offense. The clerk then asked the "other' what he thought it was worth......the "other" replied he thought the gun was worth upward of $650 because of what new 29s sold for, the condition of the gun, and the appeal/demand for pre-lock, P&R S&Ws. The "other" then told the clerk that $500 was a reasonable offer to make and still left room for the shop to make a nice profit. It was the clerk that told the "other", "if you think it's worth that much, why don't you buy it for that!". When the "other" did just that, the clerk then became highly irate and basically told them both to get out and not come back. I could have followed them out of the store and offered more, but again, I was being considerate of the "other" who had just been trying to be considerate of the seller, who was obviously being taken advantage of. Gun shops are going thru the same thing car dealers did a few years back when car sales and sites that gave accurate selling prices and estimates of what used cars were worth first came out. Suddenly, they had to be honest. Suddenly, they all started to have their "low price guaranteed, no haggle price". Like with gun and gun shops, folks can still sell their used car FTF for more monies, than to a dealer or trading it in. Most do not care to. That is basically becoming the same with used guns. It is a win/win for the seller and has given used car salesmen a much better image.

 

[lemaymiami]

I buy most of my supplies for my small business (full time fishing guide since 1996) off of the internet... No it's not Gunbroker - and I'm very rarely looking for any gun at all... but the basics don't change, whether you're on the 'net or walking into a store for the items you need (or very occasionally just want - and may not need at all, if you're being honest with yourself...).

The prime thing I try to always keep in mind is what the item costs normally - and what I can usually find it for if I'm shopping carefully.. That's balanced against how much it's needed (and how soon) as opposed to how scarce a particular item is.... Sometimes if you need something and it's rarely offered anywhere you jump on it and cost is a distant consideration. In any business though I try to keep cost in sight as much as possible. Yes, you can end up on the short end of any transaction - the internet and all the related buying/selling stuff is no different from you local shop so you learn to be careful and usually if it looks too good to be true - it is.... In the past year I've bought from direct internet sellers (may or may not have a storefront operation as well....) items up to around $2000 with great success (and no local additional costs along with free shipping means I'm usually ahead in dollars and cents terms..). Yes I've had bad deals and come out on the short end - but every time it's been for small money and involved used items as opposed to new. All in all I've been very pleased with the 'net and E-Bay and Gunbroker as well -but I go into 99% of my transactions with little or no emotion involved...

By the way, during this virus season - when everything is shutdown locally (south Florida) I see UPS, FedEx, and Amazon deliveries daily up and down the street in the suburban area I'm in. At my place we've had at least ten deliveries with everything in good order since all the serious closures and restrictions started. Only three of them have been mine - the remainder my wife's... Who'd have thought that our world could have changed this much in just a few short years...

 

[entropy]

The Blue Book is so outdated it is no relevant anymore

You do realize Steve updates it every year, right?

 

[BearBrimstone]

You do realize Steve updates it every year, right?

The problem is that with the way things change it would need to be updated at the very least monthly to stay relevant and that is pushing it. A good example is the Smith & Wesson model 360. They went from $900 new to $500 almost over night last year. Blue book price would be way off on guns like that and could stay way off for almost a year if only updated annually. Physical books in general are outdated when it comes to dynamic things like gun values. They just can’t be updated often enough to stay relevant.

 

[Kayaker 1960]

As a business person, I'm often amazed at how many people really don't seem to understand how business works.

 

[entropy]

The problem is that with the way things change it would need to be updated at the very least monthly to stay relevant and that is pushing it. A good example is the Smith & Wesson model 360. They went from $900 new to $500 almost over night last year. Blue book price would be way off on guns like that and could stay way off for almost a year if only updated annually. Physical books in general are outdated when it comes to dynamic things like gun values. They just can’t be updated often enough to stay relevant.

Agreed.

Yes, there are going to be fluctuations for various reasons; A character in a film uses a certain model, etc. but the baseline prices in the Blue Book are usually decent. Any gun shop staff worth their salt will know when and how much the deviations from Blue book will be.

 

[NCSUPackman]

I work part time in a local shop and I think one of the issues is people don't understand that guns are very regional. This can be due to restrictions (magazine capacity, etc), hunting regulations (only slug, restricted caliber types), or just regional preferences.

A gun that may be popular in one part of the country will not necessarily be popular in another. GunBroker has a national reach. The local shop generally only has the people who walk through the door.

There are a lot of New Yorkers who try to sell guns they brought down from New York and get offended by the prices offered to them most of the time, exclaiming they bought it for X. That shotgun configured for slug hunting, which isn't as popular in North Carolina as it is in upstate New York, from what I understand. Guns are also more expensive in more restricted states due to the greater red tape to run a gun store and fewer stores. Therefore, what stores there are can charge higher prices because you can't easily take you business elsewhere.

Another example is a Glock or Smith & Wesson from New York or Massachusetts has to have our armorers replace the heavy trigger with a stock trigger for most people to want to buy the gun as well as the fact that most people down here don't want a used handgun with only 10 round magazines.

I go fishing in the top of Maine once a year and always check out the local gun shops. Every gun shop/pawn shop up there always has a bunch of Winchester 94s and usually several are chambered in 32 Winchester Special. 32 Winchester special isn't that common in North Carolina. Most local little general stores up there that sell ammo usually have a box of .303 British. Due to being on the border of Canada, .303 is a lot more common up there.

What can easily sell in one region of the country for X, may have to be priced down to Y so sell in another.

 

[OneFreeTexan]

Having worked in "the industry" for more than fifty years and used GB as well as many of the big auction houses, my "take" is that the vast majority of the people in "the industry" today are low-life thieves out to screw anyone and everyone in order to put a dime in their own pockets. At the top of the list is Cabela's and the idiots who work for or did work for them and now work for another den of thieves. There aren't possibly enough bad things to be said about this company. Working down the list, next come the auction houses that take 10 - 25% from the seller and another 10 - 25% from the buyer and then add a outrageous amount for "handling and shipping." Some of the thieves in the auction houses will even buy items from their so-called competitors and then sell them at their next auction or use their FFL to buy brand new firearms at wholesale prices from manufacturers and distributors and sell them at their auctions. Next are the thieves who see the "flipping" shows on tv and decide they can do the same thing with firearms. They actually will buy a firearm from one website and then try to sell it after jacking up the price anywhere from 25 to 100+% on another website or auction. And it goes on and on downhill from there until we get to the thieves who steal firearms, often literally steal, from widows and grieving families or families being torn apart by fights over inheritance. Now that I'm thinking about it, these thieves probably should be pushed up the list to second place just below Cabela's. So... exactly where do you fall in this list?[/QUOTE\


Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

 

[Llama Bob]

Gunbroker and similar put the squeeze on the LGS. That's their job and they do it well. If you don't like people checking prices have better prices.

 

[FFGColorado]

Gunbroker and similar put the squeeze on the LGS. That's their job and they do it well. If you don't like people checking prices have better prices.

Having been in the retail 'trenches' for a long time, can't always do that. Competing with places with little to no overhead..you can't just 'have better prices'.

I had LOTS of fixed expenses a lot of MO/online places DON'T have. I had to be in a good retail place, that MO/Online place is in some dusty industrial park. I had to have a ton of insurance, lots of labor(payroll)..An online place can survive with a computer, some storage, some boxes and very few people.

Knowledgable retailers recognize the interweb world we now live in. Offer things you can't get online, be polite, be helpful..identify your target audience and pursue that aggressively. Getting tweaked and in the face of customer doesn't help....Be frugal, 'economy of scale' A local place can try to lower prices and rely on volume.and that can work(altho it's expensive-payroll and inventory plus rent/insurance) but if volume falls(like right now)..you are OOB.....

 

[Steve S.]

Business people are amazed that most customers do not understand business. I get amazed that a lot of business people get appalled when their customers don’t want to pay for their kid’s college, their rent, their margaritas at the Mexican restaurant, their oil change, their #2 at McDonald’s, their medical insurance, their electric bill, (etc - you get the gist). That coin has two sides - if I can purchase any item from a more efficient provider and reduce Johnny’s tuition bill to me, I will do it.

 

[FFGColorado]

Business people are amazed that most customers do not understand business. I get amazed that a lot of business people get appalled when their customers don’t want to pay for their kid’s college, their rent, their margaritas at the Mexican restaurant, their oil change, their #2 at McDonald’s, their medical insurance, their electric bill, (etc - you get the gist). That coin has two sides - if I can purchase any item from a more efficient provider and reduce Johnny’s tuition bill to me, I will do it.

I get the gist.....Most small business' 'might' break even at the end of the year. Mine certainly did. How dare a retail business owner expect to make a living wage and live a NOT extravagant lifestyle, but have an occasional marge...Sure, 'if it's so tough, get out'...again, many 'customers' don't understand retail at all...

If a person mentioned that they found a better deal elsewhere, I APPLAUDED' their choice..most of the time the industry(as in distributors and manufacturers) hurt the retailer way more than online/MO places..Because the manufacturers allowed these 'no playing field' places to buy and then sell...IE-NO store front.

 

[Hokkmike]

It is not the "selling price" but rather the "sold for" price that is a good indicator of values - that stretched over several transactions.

 

[buck460XVR]

As a business person, I'm often amazed at how many people really don't seem to understand how business works.

Most all of us here had Freshman Economics, where we were taught the basic principles of supply and demand. It's not rocket science. Most of us had basic accounting, where we learned about profit/loss. Pretty straightforward. Most of us here were also taught some kind of ethics/morals from our parents and grandparents. Some of us were taught to be fair and not take advantage of people. Some....not so much.

Gunbroker and similar put the squeeze on the LGS. That's their job and they do it well. If you don't like people checking prices have better prices.

Exactly.......and the dissent I see here towards places like Gunbroker from others in gun sales is not because they are misinforming folks, but informing them as to what their guns are worrth.

Business people are amazed that most customers do not understand business. I get amazed that a lot of business people get appalled when their customers don’t want to pay for their kid’s college, their rent, their margaritas at the Mexican restaurant, their oil change, their #2 at McDonald’s, their medical insurance, their electric bill, (etc - you get the gist). That coin has two sides - if I can purchase any item from a more efficient provider and reduce Johnny’s tuition bill to me, I will do it.

I do not mind supporting local businesses. Especially at times like this. I don't even mind paying a little more to keep my business in town. Our country runs on capitalism. Small business is what makes this country great. I have no problem with businesses making an honest profit off me as long as they are not ripping me off. Being in the construction business for most of my life, I saw folks being taken advantage of and ripped off all the time. Shoddy workmanship, materials mis-represented as to quality and padding the bill. Being in the same small town most of my life, my reputation preceded me. It was what made folks repeat customers. It's why I didn't have to advertise. The example I gave in my previous post was an example of somebody about to be severely taken advantage of. It was nuttin' but greed and lack of respect for others. That is not business. That is a shame.

 

[Elkins45]

I peruse Armslist a couple times a day. It seems to me that there are A LOT of people that expect to get 100% of the full retail price they paid for a non-collectible firearm.

I think part of that is a reaction to the unfortunate characteristic of many gun people that they aren’t happy unless they feel like they are screwing someone. Lots of buyers automatically subtract $25-$50 or more from the asking price under the assumption that sellers have priced in some bargaining room. I’m not sure if those sellers expect to get those prices, but I think they realize if they list it for the fair price they will end up selling it for less that that because if people don’t get their ‘bargain’ they will move on.

My experience from doing lots of trades and purchases at gun shows is that if two sellers have two identical guns but one is $400 firm and the other is $450 but “make me an offer” the $450 gun will sell for $400 or even $425 while the $400 firm gun gathers dust. I would be perfectly happy to sell used guns at a fair price but human nature unfortunately demands you let the horse traders get their negotiating fix. I once stood in the heat getting eaten by bugs for at least 10 minutes while my dad bargained a guy down from $10 to $8 on a vacuum cleaner at a flea market. He probably had $2000 (minimum) in cash in his wallet. It wasn’t about the $2. It was about winning the battle.

I buy a lot of used guns. I use Gunbroker to research prices. I do realize that if I'm selling a gun to a retailer that I'm going to take a hit. That's why I never sell to a retailer.

I’ve never sold a gun to a retailer but I have traded a few. Sometimes if you’re trading something popular for something odd or unusual you can not take too much of a loss.

 

[chicharrones]

Having been in the retail 'trenches' for a long time, can't always do that. Competing with places with little to no overhead..you can't just 'have better prices'.

I had LOTS of fixed expenses a lot of MO/online places DON'T have. I had to be in a good retail place, that MO/Online place is in some dusty industrial park. I had to have a ton of insurance, lots of labor(payroll)..An online place can survive with a computer, some storage, some boxes and very few people.

Knowledgable retailers recognize the interweb world we now live in. Offer things you can't get online, be polite, be helpful..identify your target audience and pursue that aggressively. Getting tweaked and in the face of customer doesn't help....Be frugal, 'economy of scale' A local place can try to lower prices and rely on volume.and that can work(altho it's expensive-payroll and inventory plus rent/insurance) but if volume falls(like right now)..you are OOB.....

Indeed. Online sellers can usually sell an item below the cost of a small brick and mortar business. Which is why we have fewer brick and mortar businesses than we did 10, 15, or 20 years ago.

Now, back to Gunbroker.

 

[Boomerang]

I run a private club and do gun sales. We do it for the service we provide, not for the profit.
If I buy 50 guns that I pay $448 each and sell them for $500 I paid $22,400 to make a profit of $2,600 and it's a lot of time and paperwork to sell 50 guns.

A large distributor recently went out of business and dumped their guns on Gunbroker at lower than MAP. They didn't care. I can't sell below MAP or I get shut off from the Manufacturer.

In a Shooting Sports Industry article, there was a recommendation to retailers to raise their transfer fees to $100 to keep the new gun business in house. I tend to agree with this, but it's not likely to ever happen.

I'm in Mass. I spend a lot of time not making a sale because of our screwy rules.
If Gunbroker only sold used guns, that would be great, but for new guns, I consider them an annoyance.

 

[Texas10mm]

I run a private club and do gun sales. We do it for the service we provide, not for the profit.
If I buy 50 guns that I pay $448 each and sell them for $500 I paid $22,400 to make a profit of $2,600 and it's a lot of time and paperwork to sell 50 guns.

A large distributor recently went out of business and dumped their guns on Gunbroker at lower than MAP. They didn't care. I can't sell below MAP or I get shut off from the Manufacturer.

In a Shooting Sports Industry article, there was a recommendation to retailers to raise their transfer fees to $100 to keep the new gun business in house. I tend to agree with this, but it's not likely to ever happen.

I'm in Mass. I spend a lot of time not making a sale because of our screwy rules.
If Gunbroker only sold used guns, that would be great, but for new guns, I consider them an annoyance.

Go ahead and raise it to $100. There's always going to be that one place or guy who doesn't. Now he gets the $$ for the transfer and you're sitting there doing nothing.

 

[FFGColorado]

In a Shooting Sports Industry article, there was a recommendation to retailers to raise their transfer fees to $100 to keep the new gun business in house. I tend to agree with this, but it's not likely to ever happen.

I think what rankles a lot of LGS are those who buy a gun online, that the LGS also carries, the uses the LGS as the FFL...Sometimes it does no good to mention to the customer that if they had bought it from the LGS, they 'may' have paid a little more but would also has LGS to stand behind the sale..with online, YOYO, if there's a problem. BUT sometimes it's about $, not about common sense.

I owned a bicycle shop for a long time. Often, people would bring in a widget for their repair instead of having us provide it. Wrong part/size/spec?? I kinda smiled and said 'no', I won't exchange or help them with the return..YOYO there.