My takeaways from CHL class.

[Big Calhoun]

So I have one foot in the grave...went for my CHL class on saturday at the Bullet Trap in Plano. Man, it was a looooooooong day, but very informative. There were plenty of things I knew from my own research and reading I have done, but there was also a lot I didn't know. Particularly pertaining to local attitudes. Some things that you commonly see discussed on various forums also came up in class and it was very interesting to kind of mesh the two worlds together:

- Observe and report. Probably one of the biggest things I took away from my CHL class and it reflects my general attitudes. With a CHL, I'm not looking to be John Wayne and save everyone. Certainly if it is a life and death situation that requires a split second decision, then a choice has to be made. But in general circumstances when a CHL could be used or justified, the first priority should be to secure you and yours, followed by observing so you can report.

- Scenarios: Some people love 'em, some people hate them. We discussed a variety of scenarios and I think a face-to-face format is really best to get the most information out of it. With a forum format, it's hard to cover all of the 'what ifs' unless you're specifically saying, "This is the situation, you can't deviate, what do you do?"

- Shoot to kill attitudes. I was surprised (but yet, I wasn't) by the number of people who applied a STK methodology to just about every scenario presented. Even long after the instructor gave us the 'nod' about observing and reporting. Still a lot of 'machismo' out there around firearms.

- Diversity. A good variety of people that appeared to come from a very diverse set of backgrounds were in the class. Young vs old, black vs white, male vs female, rich vs middle class vs indigant. What was so great was out of all of this diversity, the class had fun together as a class as we were able to find and explore on common ground. Met quite a few nice gents that I hope we get a chance to do some shooting and grab some beers.

- Metro TX vs Rural TX...I need to get out of the Metroplex. Nuff said.

- Know the risks! The portion of the class where we discussed legal ramifications was the most interesting to me. I did not know (and someone keep me honest) that in TX, even if the use of deadly force was justified, it still has to go to a grand jury for a true bill/no bill...which will set you back an average of $50,000!!!!!!!! And that's before you even have to worry about the civil part!!!!

From the reactions in class, I don't think most people considered that in their decision to seek a CHL nor do I think a lot of folks comprehended the gravity of it afterwards. Many folks seemed to have an impression that, hey, if ou shoot someone and it was justified, clean up the mess and case closed. It's not that easy.

So again, very interesting class that I advise anyone to take (CHL class in general or the CHL class by Bullet Trap). I think it can be a real eye opener and mature you relative to firearms. I know it was and did for me.

 

[TX1911fan]

I had the same reaction to my CHL class, especially about the diversity. I think that $50,000 is high for a grand jury. Probably closer to $8,000, but still a lot of money. Hopefully we'll get some help from the Legislature on the civil aspect this session.

 

[ezypikns]

Like you, I did some research before class.

Even so, I learned a lot more in class. The real eye opener for me was the almost complete innocence of some of the class when it came to using deadly force. These were good folks but many had only fired a handgun a few times before class, weren't too concious of basic safety rules, and had no idea what might happen in a deadly force encounter after they pulled the trigger.
I believe the best thing for a prospective student to do is to shoot for a while before class, and do some reading. Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" would be a good one, and I'm sure there are others.
Shooting is just plain fun, but carrying a weapon to defend you and yours is a very serious matter, and should be approached with a lot of thought and not a little soul searching.

 

[sefus]

STK

Ive thought and reasearched this alot and Ive got to say, for me, if you shoot, it had better be to kill.

 

[ETXhiker]

I did not know (and someone keep me honest) that in TX, even if the use of deadly force was justified, it still has to go to a grand jury for a true bill/no bill...which will set you back an average of $50,000!!!!!!!!

Wow. Does this mean you have to pay for the Grand Jury, or is this lawyer's fees?

 

[MechAg94]

I think that cost is a bit high. I doubt it would go there anyway unless there was something questionable about the incident.
I will likely still cost some money though.

 

[sacp81170a]

The real eye opener for me was the almost complete innocence of some of the class when it came to using deadly force.

Use of force, let alone use of deadly force, is one of those areas where most of the general public is *frighteningly* ignorant. I almost think there should be a class in high school on this subject. I've had so many years of training on appropriate levels of force that I'm struck by the misconceptions people have about when they can and can't use force, the level they can use, etc. Along with the shooting and self protection portion of our CCW class, we give our students a thorough grounding in basic self defense and the law.

One of the biggest myths, of course, is that if you shoot someone trying to break into your house, drag him inside. It's usually a shock to most of our students when they hear that Arkansas allows the use of deadly force on a person "entering or attempting to enter" a dwelling. Most people are ignorant of just when and how much force to use.

 

[Deanimator]

I had the same reaction to my CHL class, especially about the diversity. I think that $50,000 is high for a grand jury. Probably closer to $8,000, but still a lot of money. Hopefully we'll get some help from the Legislature on the civil aspect this session.

Well, there's no charge for letting somebody murder you, or if you're a woman rape and murder you.

That is of course what the anti-self-defense crowd wants you to do...

 

[Big Calhoun]

I think that cost is a bit high. I doubt it would go there anyway unless there was something questionable about the incident.

That what I was wondering. I remember seeing on a forum a story about a CCW in Ohio. In there was background information that whether a shooting is justified or not, it still has to go to the grand jury (even if on the face of it, everything was done right). So I question if that is the case in Texas.

I'm actually in the process of reaching out to the state and to the City of Irving so I can find out what court sessions I can sit in on and when they are. I really would like a better understanding of how the system works out here and, IMO, no better way than to see it in action.

I forget to mention that tonight I go back for my fingerprints and qualification. I'm a little nervous about the qual (haven't been in the range in about a month) but it seems relatively easy. They gave us a copy of the course of fire.

 

[TXGunGeek]

Grand Jury in Texas

I think that cost is a bit high. I doubt it would go there anyway unless there was something questionable about the incident.

So I question if that is the case in Texas.

$50K is a bit high. If the perp dies, you are going before a grand jury in Texas period. That is the law. The DA has all the choice of how the material is presented. If they think it was a clean shoot they may choose to present it that way and you are in pretty good shape. However, if you shoot in Austin and some other very anti-gun areas, the DA is going to pull all the stops out to get an indictment even if it was a clean shoot. You can and should have legal council at that point but you and they have NO say in what is presented (or how it is presented) to the GJ. More reasonable estimates I have gotten is $10-15K for a clean shoot, it goes up as the DA gets jumpy or if the shoot is questionable in any way or there is public sentiment against the shoot motivating the DA to be political.

This is why it is extremely important that beyond when it is legal to shoot, YOU need to decide what and who is worth shooting for, FOR YOU, ahead of time. Play lots of the "what if?" game. It's all free at that point. Remember that the guy or gal you don't know in the park is not likely to fork out the money for your defense or help take care of your family while you are going through the legal and emotional hell of post shooting. Talk to a lawyer with deadly force case experience. This is goign to be a very personal decision that you should put much thought into ahead of time.

Don't be nervous about the qual. the Texas CHL qual is really pretty basic not that tough. Besides, you have three chances to pass before you have to take class again and you can easily score more than enough points to pass at 3 and 7 yards. This is not to say that it is OK to blow it off. Just get your gun up quickly and spend your time getting good hits and you'll be fine. People are often amazed at how much time they have left in each shooting string after they fired their shots and are standing around waiting for the string to be over.

Also, the CHL course is a good place to start but DO NOT stop there. Get more training especially in night / low light shooting since that is when you are most likely to be involved in a defensive shooting. If you have the opportunity to take a class that features force on force training, take it!!! This will add a whole number of complicating factors to your decision making process. Better to make bad decisions in class and learn from them than to end up with a live shooting in a bad situation.

There is more macho "shoot to kill" attitude in some people than people will generally admit. FoF exercises will sometimes bring that out as well giving people scenarios that should not end in a shooting but often do. This is why high numbers for legal expenses are sometimes used to shock people into stopping adn thinking about why they shouldn't shoot at everything that moves.

People devolve to their lowest level when the poop starts flinging, 50% of your WORST day at the range is a reasonable expectation in the real world!! Watch out for monkey brain, it will get you in trouble.

 

[eastwood44mag]

Sounds like I'll be staying out of Texas. 50G for a justified shoot is insane.

 

[Big Calhoun]

Pursuant to the requirements set forth by this Great State of Texas, I passed!!

Now, off to the P.O. tomorrow and then the wait...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

even if the use of deadly force was justified, it still has to go to a grand jury for a true bill/no bill...which will set you back an average of $50,000!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but that sounds like a completely bogus statement. On top of that, it is misleading. What the grand jury will be doing, in part, is determining whether or not lethal force was justified as viewed by the legal system.

As far as the $50K goes, I would be interested in knowing how the instructor came up with that amount of money as an average. Obviously, those who can't afford a lawyer get an appointed lawyer for free, so some folks must be paying way over $50K to handle things through the GJ process. I doubt it.

Sounds like I'll be staying out of Texas. 50G for a justified shoot is insane.

This isn't a Texas issue. Unless you take the appointed lawyer, then you will likely have to pay lawyer fees in whatever state in which you shot in self defense and the circumstances were such that it wasn't a painfully obvious case of self defense

 

[BullfrogKen]

A class taught to satisfy the training requirement for a CCL issued by a state is usually going to cover only what's necessary to get the student the license.

PA has no training requirement. So do other states. Even those with them have exceptions for certain folks of a given background.


I encourage anyone who has decided to carry a pistol to seek out professional training. The minimal class required for a permit doesn't constitute training.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Bullet Trap bases its numbers on an early study of Texas CHL holders legal fees. They used the same study when I took their CHL class in 2000. The actual range is between $10k-$50k and I don't believe there is any record of whether that includes just the grand jury or beyond that.

The upper range is probably high because at least a couple of borderline CHL shoots have ended up going to trial.

 

[laurafan]

.

In Dallas you might be okay.
http://www.old-yankee.com/rkba/armcit/armc395.html

Look at the 5th story down. I talked to this guy, and he was no billed with almost no legal assistance. He commented that one of the officers on the scene told him it was a clean shoot. He did say having to be a witness in the trial of the other suspect was a huge PITA. He stayed in stealth mode for a while in the dallas area, then moved away.

 

[lawson4]

I think alot of the STK attitude is "on paper" only. That is, when it comes down to it, they only think they will, but they probably won't except in the most extreme circumstances.

lawson4

 

[Double Naught Spy]

- Know the risks! The portion of the class where we discussed legal ramifications was the most interesting to me. I did not know (and someone keep me honest) that in TX, even if the use of deadly force was justified, it still has to go to a grand jury for a true bill/no bill...which will set you back an average of $50,000!!!!!!!! And that's before you even have to worry about the civil part!!!!

This isn't right. What is that $50K doing for you. You do NOT need a lawyer for your case to go to the Grand Jury. In fact, you don't get to be there and neither does your lawyer. From the state... http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/CR/content/word/cr.001.00.000020.00.doc

Art. 20.011. WHO MAY BE PRESENT IN GRAND JURY ROOM. (a) Only the following persons may be present in a grand jury room while the grand jury is conducting proceedings:
(1) grand jurors;
(2) bailiffs;
(3) the attorney representing the state;
(4) witnesses while being examined or when necessary to assist the attorney representing the state in examining other witnesses or presenting evidence to the grand jury;
(5) interpreters, if necessary; and
(6) a stenographer or person operating an electronic recording device, as provided by Article 20.012.
(b) Only a grand juror may be in a grand jury room while the grand jury is deliberating.
Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 1011, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

The Grand Jury process happens completely without you and your lawyer. The purpose of the Grand Jury is to decide whether or not there is sufficient evidence to press charges. If not, the case is no-billed. You can, however, end up with your case presented again to the grand jury if new evidence arises as having the case go before the grand jury does not count as YOU going befor a jury and hence double jeopardy does not apply. Being no-billed simply means they Grand Jury did not believe their to be sufficient evidence to proceed further at that time.

Since the accused is not the focus, the accused and the accused's lawyer are not allowed to be present any more than they are allowed to argue with police as to what is or is not evidence at a crime scene. The Grand Jury is a procedural and administrative matter only.

So in the recent case of the Tyler, Tx homeowner shooting the intruder that broke down his front door, see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=233904&highlight=$50,000 , with no charges being filed and the case going to the grand jury, there is no reason to expect there to be $50,000 in expenses. The homeowner may have hired a lawyer as a preemptive action, but not because of any charges and not because his case is being considered by the Grand Jury as is the law in Texas.

Given what the CHL instructor was claiming, I have to wonder where that average of $50,000 is going just to get through the Grand Jury process.

 

[Lonestar]

More reasonable estimates I have gotten is $10-15K for a clean shoot, it goes up as the DA gets jumpy or if the shoot is questionable in any way or there is public sentiment against the shoot motivating the DA to be political.

While not the same thing my company got sued a few times, and I handled the legal bills. For defense an attorney cost anywhere from $100 to $250. You have to pay various expenses on top of that (transcriptions, copy fees, experts, etc). At the end of the day if it goes all the way to trial your looking at $15,000 to $30,000. $10K to $15K is probably about right for a cut and dry case. The more complicated the case, the more work needs to be done, and the more expensive it gets.

 

[Rimmer]

This is the first thread I have read in the last three years that isn't full of macho shoot-um up gunslinger attitude. A pleasure to read everyones comments.

The approach my instructor offered:
1. Run
2. Be a good witness.
3. Shoot to stop the threat but be very accurate.
4. Show deep concern for having shot someone while keeping your mouth shut until your Atty arrives.

I hope I never have to do any of the above, but if I do, I will follow his advice.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

While not the same thing my company got sued a few times, and I handled the legal bills. For defense an attorney cost anywhere from $100 to $250. You have to pay various expenses on top of that (transcriptions, copy fees, experts, etc). At the end of the day if it goes all the way to trial your looking at $15,000 to $30,000. $10K to $15K is probably about right for a cut and dry case. The more complicated the case, the more work needs to be done, and the more expensive it gets.

Right, and that is to get a person through the whole process including the trial, the majority of that expense being for activity AFTER the Grand Jury process.