neck sizing vs. full length sizing - bolt guns

[Bart B.]

Horsemany, for goodness sake. It's obvious you don't want to compare these two rifle types at comparable ranges.

Of course, smart people don't take a high power match rifle to a benchrest match.

And smart people don't take a benchrest rifle to a high power match.

Either one of these "cross shooters" would get trounced. Smart shooters in either discipline know why even though they know each is equally accurate. Wanna know why, or do you already know? The answer has nothing to do with the accuracy either one and its ammo has.

By the way, I've seen high power match rifles shoot 30 consecutive shots into the zeros at 100 yards. But the hole in the target was about 40 caliber. Any good high power match rifle will shoot in the ones and under at 100 yards.

 

[Horsemany]

It's gettin deep!!!

 

[Walkalong]

Rifles used in High Power etc are very, very good, but Benchrest rifles are the most accurate rifles in the world. It's a different game. It is about extreme accuracy, nothing else.

The long range Benchrest shooters could be competitive in High Power, but HP shooters just won't be competitive in Benchrest.

Different rifles for a different game.

There are some great shooters in HP and the other target type disciplines, don't get me wrong there. They have some great rifles, just not ones that can agg in the ones if the shooter is up to it. They just are not set up for that.

Bart seems to dislike Benchrest for some reason. I do enjoy his posts, and I am sure he knows what he is talking about for the most part.

Most folks think we are nuts anyway horsemany.

 

[Horsemany]

Most folks think we are nuts anyway horsemany.

HaHa. Roger that.

 

[FROGO207]

For you gentlemen with a Lee trimmer someone once told me to put the cutter stud into the chuck of a drill press and use the press table as the stop for the spacing rod. Hold the brass base down on the table, lower the bit and it will stop at the exact same place every time. All cases are length sized exactly the same. It's that easy. I bought a cheapie drill press that is dedicated for this use only, I don't even have the chuck key anymore or at least cant find it now.

 

[Bart B.]

Walkalong says:

Rifles used in High Power etc are very, very good, but Benchrest rifles are the most accurate rifles in the world. It's a different game. It is about extreme accuracy, nothing else.

I guess my example of several 10-shot groups at 600 yards ranging from 1.5 down to .7 inches (which agg'd about 1.1 inch) is pretty bad compared to what long range benchrest rifle do.

So now I wonder why benchrest rifles that do better than this have their results hidden someplace. Or else benchresters just don't believe that such groups are possible from any shoulder-fired rifle with aperture sights because their egos won't let them.

He also says:

Bart seems to dislike Benchrest for some reason.

Wrong again, but only partially so. I like benchrest agg. scores but try to find out what the largest group is. But I'm not impressed by tiny 5-shot groups in the zeros that set records. They're in the "statistical luck" range because they're rarely, if ever, equalled again by the same rifle and shooter.

If a benchrester had some 20-shot groups for us to see, then we'd know what their real accuracy was. Closest thing to this is agg.'s for three 10-shot ones that have the largest one listed. If all three groups were superimposed atop each other aligned at their aiming points, the composite will typically be larger than any single one.

 

[Bart B.]

Horsemany, regarding your comment:

My Stolle Panda 6ppc with Krieger barrel will shoot 5 shot groups that look like 30 caliber holes. THis is not uncommon for benchrest guns.

What other group sizes does it shoot? If they are 30 caliber holes, that 5-shot group's about .060-inch. Betcha bigger ones are more common.

Did you ever shoot 20 shots into a .060-in. group?

 

[Howard Roark]

Can someone explain what the differance is between building a benchrest rifle and a high power long range rifle? It has been asserted that BR guns are better built than LR rifles. How so?

Extra credit for not using Google.

 

[Walkalong]

But I'm not impressed by tiny 5-shot groups in the zeros that set records. They're in the "statistical luck" range because they're rarely,

That is what I am saying. We have had no disrespect for your sport, but you completely dismiss ours as "statistical luck", and scoff at 5 shot groups in the zeros.

So you don't dislike it, you just discount it as if it were nothing. I can assure you it is a very difficult sport and those little groups are not luck, at least not most of them.

I don't scoff at your sport, and I have a lot of respect for the folks who shoot it, especially the ones who are good at it. It is more like real world shooting. Benchrest is a very specialized extreme accuracy game.

 

[Horsemany]

This isn't really debatable. It is not an opinion that benchrest rifles are more accurate than highpower. It is fact. The reasons nobody uses BR rifles in highpower are not because they lack accuracy. BR guns are very specialized tools built to be as accurate as modern technology will allow. The stocks are all but clamped into the front rests etc, etc.

But let's get back to the original idea of why we're discussing this. No shooting discipline scrutinizes loading techniques more than benchrest. There are entire companies built around manufacturing and selling reloading equipment specific to benchrest. There are many reloading forums specifically dealing with benchrest.

Almost all the group records under 300yds are owned by 6ppc. You don't see many ppc's at the highpower matches. Different game. Look up any distance group record you want. The majority were shot with BR guns and that's a fact. Check out 6mmbr.com and read the articles about recent record setters. Not many highpower guns being used for this.

I am in no way denigrating the sport of highpower. The guns and shooters are amazingly accurate. It's a different game which involves more personal shooting skills and relies less on equipment IMO. BR is more just reading the wind. Much of the human element is eliminated. It is purely a focus of loading technique and reading wind and mirage.

 

[something vague]

BR guns would not at all be compatible with shooting High Power most of all due to weight and balance issues. If BR guns were not built like tanks to get every ounce of accuracy out of them, I could assure you that they would be used in High Power. They just aren't made for free hand shooting. But pretty much any gun is able to be set up on some sort of bench platform yet no high power designs ever make it to the bench in competition. Why is that? Like has been said, BR is more of a test of what extreme accuracy equipment and ammo is capable of as compared to what the human is capable of in highpower. I agree that better shooters probably come from high power but definitly not better equipment and ammo.

 

[Horsemany]

well said.

 

[Howard Roark]

I guess I'll answser my own question as most figured I would.

There is no differance in the process of Properly building a BR or a LR rifle. Both are threaded and chambered by the same exacting process. Such as using a long pin guage and two indicators to indicate the bore so the chamber is cut to the exact correct center line so that the bullet enters the bore in perfect alignment. Both use the same high quality components. The only differances I have seen are a LR action is never intentionally glued in a stock and the stock design itself. The barrel diameters and weights are comparable, within 1/2 to 1#. Top tier smiths like Alan Warner and Bob Gamboa build LR rifles with the same precision as any BR rifle.

High power LR shooters have been adopting BR loading techniques for years now. The top LR shooters all weigh and sort bullets and brass. Bullets are typically meplat trimmed, sorted by weight, base to ogive length, bearing surface length. Some point the bullets. These processes yield 1000 yard downrange retained velocity and SD averages of almost zero. Everyone has a chronograph set up at the target as well as the gun right?

As equipment has improved, so have the scores. The men hold no better today than they did 50 years ago but the equipment improvements and techniques borrowed from BR are crushing the old high power records. The top high power shooters hold and call their shots within 1/4 min. For instance I was talking to Dement of the AMU a couple of weeks ago and he clicks on the figure X at 1K. I click on the x-ring on a good day.

I would not say either disiplines shooters are better than the other. Both require a specific skill set to excel.

 

[MCMXI]

The men hold no better today than they did 50 years ago but the equipment improvements and techniques borrowed from BR are crushing the old high power records.

All of this back and forth is interesting, but I've already posted links to the most current 1000 yard benchrest heavy gun world records. The current national records for 1000 yard F-Class Open Individual High Power Rifle are as follows .....

15 Shots Prone Slow Fire
10/4/08
Jeff Cochran
150-11X

20 Shots Prone Slow Fire
6/8/08
Charles Ballard
200-13X

The NRA records don't show group size but if you know anything about F-Class targets you'll know that the X-ring is 1/2 MOA = 5.23" at 1000 yards. Since neither shooter got every shot in the X-ring, one thing we know for sure, neither one shot groups under 5.23". In fact, they could have shot groups as big as 1MOA which is the diameter of the 10 ring. The benchrest world record groups were only 10-shot groups so this isn't an apples to apples comparison but it may shed some light on the topic.

Added in edit: The national record for F-Class Open at 600 yards (20 shots slow fire prone) was set by Peter White on 10/14/07. He shot a 200-15X. The X-ring is 3.14" at 600 yards so he didn't shoot a 3" group at 600 yards!!

So at this point, unless someone can produce F-Class world record data to indicate otherwise, it's clear to me that benchrest shooters set the standard for long-range accuracy. I would be thrilled to shoot like any of the competitors listed, but as far as which discipline produces the smallest groups ... well, you decide.

 

[Howard Roark]

I did not state that belly shooters could shoot groups as good as the BR guys.

My point is that there is no differance in how well the rifles are built between the two disiplines. High power shooters are using techniques learned from BR shooters to improve their scores. The old records are falling because of this.

This mass has ended, now go in peace.

 

[MCMXI]

Howard, I didn't say you did. I just wanted to show what one can expect from the best in each discipline so that the members here can make up their own minds as to which group sets the standard for accuracy. Some here, Bart for instance, seem to be saying that high power rifle shooters produce smaller groups than benchrest shooters. If this is the case, then the national and world records should reflect that. Clearly they don't.

For the record, I have ZERO interest in benchrest shooting but I do like to see what's possible. The benchrest shooters show what's possible under perfect conditions with top quality equipment. This is important since it gives us ALL a point of reference.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

I think wording that caused controversy was:

Horsemany, high power match rifles tested for accuracy with full length sized cases at 300, 600 and 1000 yards shoot groups equal to or smaller than any bench rest rifle. Compare these to what match winning benchrest rifles do.
...

The 'or smaller' and 'any bench rest rifle' is certianly a stretch. That's not to say that their might not be a highpower rifle out there that can shoot in the '.0'(s), there may be, but implying that as a rule a highpower rifle is more accurate than a benchrest rifle isn't credible.

Precision is what benchrest is all about. Highpower embraces precision, but adds additional challenges, making it less likely to be a vehicle that demonstrates precision.

Now you all should get back to the neck-sizing debate.

I'm wondering if what compels Bart to always full-length-size is the fireformed brass has a different capacity, and may potentially have changes his loading to a non-optimum load, or outside the center of an optimum node. (You would surely want to do this when fireforming, say, a .22-250 to a .22-250 AI. Who has taken this step, or experimented, when just using, say, fireformed .308 Win and neck sizing?)

 

[Bart B.]

To prevent a "hijack notice" I've posted more stuff on another thread:

Building an NRA High Power Match Rifle

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5664119#post5664119

 

[Bart B.]

RugerOldArmy says:

I'm wondering if what compels Bart to always full-length-size is the fireformed brass has a different capacity, and may potentially have changes his loading to a non-optimum load, or outside the center of an optimum node.

Full length sized cases just shoot bullets more accurate. Either full power or reduced loads; both have shot the best scores and smallest test groups across many barrel and chambers.

On another note (and not a sour one), I hope nobody's claiming that 100 yard groups in the zeros will also be in the zeros at 600 yards. 'Tain't gonna happen; no way whatsoever. Small variables in ballistic coefficient, muzzle velocity and those subtle down range winds prevent it.