Need .38 FBI Load of Something Close

[Diamondback]

[When the FBI first started issuing HP ammo in about 1975 the loading was W-W 158 gr LSWCHP+P. About 1977 or 1978 Federal was the issued ammo with the same 158 gr loading. I know that up until 1979 no 147 gr .38 ammo was issued for duty.
Prior to going to W-W 158 gr LSWCHP the issued load was 158 gr RNL.
The issued .357 ammo was either W-W or Remington 158 gr LSWC, non-HP. Policy dictate that regardless of which gun was carried only .38 LSWCHP+P was to be loaded in the gun. .357 ammo could be carried only as reload.

I took me a few days, but I finally got an answer from someone at the Agency...... The last ISSUED service revolver was the S&W Model 13 with the 158 +p grain LSWCHP you are referring to.

When the Agency switched to the Sig 226/228 as the official issue sidearm, in the early 90's, they allowed Agents to carry the S&W Model 60 as a back-up weapon and issued the Federal 147 grain Hydra-Shok JHP +P+ ammo in place of the 158 +p LSWCHP.

In 01/2006 the FBI discontinued the use of revolvers completely, and the Model 60 was replaced by the Glock 26/27 as a back-up weapon.

- regards

 

[The_Shootist]

Speer Short BBl .357 Ammo?

This sounds like something I'd like to try in my SP101 (3 1/3" bbl). Normally I carry the FBI load but has anyone tried this Speer .357 version of the short bbl round? Whats it like recoil wise? Like a slightly stouter Golden Sabre?

 

[Jim March]

I tried the Gold Dot 135gr 357 from my New Vaquero with a 4.5" barrel . Tested the 38+P variant in that same gun at the same time, and also the DoubleTap 125gr monsters (over 1,500fps).

The New Vaq is a good-sized gun (similar to Colt SAA) but comes factory with a sharply checkered plastic grip. The Doubletaps were painful. The 357 "Short Barrel" 135s were NOT painful, the different was night and day. It felt more stout by a bit than the 38+P of course but it was very, very controllable.

And a surprise: the 357 135gr remains to this day the most accurate factory load I've shot in that gun. They grouped right at 2" at 25yds, where the 38+P version pulled 3" and the Doubletaps around 5".

Despite having a longer tube than they're meant for, I'm treating the 135gr 357s as a defense load in that gun, switching back to 38+P only for urban carry.

In an SP101, the 357 135gr will do just fine. The JHP cavity (identical to the 38+P variant) is enormous.

 

[DawgFvr]

Someone mentioned earlier that they have not seen the Corbon DPX results...here is what I found:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon 38 Special Ammo.htm

I believe that these "all-copper" bullets were designed for the short barrel pistols and wheel guns with excellent results. They leave no lead residue (so weapons are easier to clean), they penetrate and expand excellently...and they do not frag or fall apart. Because of their lighter weight, there is also a noticeable recoil reduction and follow up shots are much easier to acquire. I use these copper tops in my short barreled .45...in my short barreled .380...and now in my newly purchased 642.

What think ye?

 

[Jim March]

I have not shot those but I'd like to!

The projectiles are from Barnes (the "X" bullet, now the "x" in "DPX") and have a good rep for accuracy.

Since the same weight in copper bullet will be physically larger, the area that rubs the inside of the barrel is abnormally large for a 125gr slug. That *should* give it an accuracy advantage over most other 125gr JHPs. Because of it's strength it can be "overdriven" in a tube like mine or longer, so it's not as snub-limited. Driving Gold Dot 135gr 357s from my barrel, I'm risking the nosecone falling apart (the failure mode when you drive a JHP too fast). Gold Dots resist this more than most but the DPX should beat it in that area.

 

[Jim March]

Just noticed that that particular page is on a discontinued item: the Cor-Bon 110gr 38spl standard pressure round.

It's now sold in that weight and caliber as +P, and at the same advertised speed. It appears they simply re-thought the pressure label .

The 125gr 357 version is what I was referring to - it's rated by Cor-Bon at 1,200ish FPS which is on the low side, esp. by Cor-Bon standards. It's probably a worthy competitor to the Speer 135 357.

Odd thing: on a lark I checked the Barnes site to see if the same parts are available as reloading components.

They sort of are...Barnes WAS selling a 125gr slug sized .357 but discontinued it in favor of a 140. This was either due to the 140 being a better product, or they have a no-compete clause with Cor-Bon on the rounds Cor-Bon loads. I'd have to study the rest of the product line to even guess what's up and it's late...

I did note that Barnes' prices for component bullets is HIGH. Worth it for small-batch reloading but there's no way a smaller competitor to Cor-Bon such as Buffbore, Black Hills, Georgia Arms or Doubletap will be able to rely on Barnes to fill in the gap left by Speer's withholding of Gold Dot products.


http://www.theextremehunter.com/site/448423/page/314821

---

I'm considering reloading for the 357. Speer has a very old-school slug that isn't sold as a loaded round at all, and component only because it has a big fan base among reloaders.

It's a 146gr oddball. Picture a 158gr plain lead hollowpoint, except shorter. Now make it "jacketed" in that the base and sides are copper plated but the entire nosecone is plain lead. What you've got is a version of the 158gr "FBI load" that won't lead up a barrel and hence can be driven to about 1,100ish FPS - barely supersonic. It makes for a very mild 357 load with a lot of the advantages and performance of the better 158+P lead hollowpoints. They're dirt cheap, too.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/bullets.aspx - click on the 146 for a crude picture...

 

[isp2605]

I'm considering reloading for the 357. Speer has a very old-school slug that isn't sold as a loaded round at all, and component only because it has a big fan base among reloaders.

It's a 146gr oddball. Picture a 158gr plain lead hollowpoint, except shorter. Now make it "jacketed" in that the base and sides are copper plated but the entire nosecone is plain lead.

Here's what you're talking about. I've never loaded them in .38, only .357 to prevent the leading you mentioned. I've taken a couple of small does with it. The Speer performed very well, no complaints. I won't list the loading as it's hotter than the manuals list today but it duplicates the original .357 loading and I only use it in my Mod 28.
Glad you mentioned these. As I was looking for them to scan in I noticed I'm getting a bit low of them so time to pick up some more.

 

[massad ayoob]

I currently carry and recommend the "New York" load, the CCI Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P JHP developed by Ernest Durham and his crew at Speer, expressly for NYPD, which still has a great many 2" .38s on the street as off duty and backup guns.

Because so many people are now using super-light Titanium or Scandium .38 Specials, this is the ideal load. The 158 grain LSWCHP +P has a combination of heavy recoil and fairly light crimp, and the violent recoil of the first couple of shots will start pulling bullets forward in the casings of remaining cartridges. These can "prarie dog" forward out of the end of the chamber, striking the forcing cone and locking the gun up solid.

This does not seem to happen with aluminum frame .38s, and never seems to happen with all steel ones. However, many shooters have a mix of steel frame, Airweight, and AirLite guns, creating a high likelihood of the wrong ammo getting into the latter. Thus, I've gotten into the habit of loading all my J-frame snubs with 135 grain Gold Dot.

For many years, the LHP (known variously as "FBI load," "Chicago load," "Metro load," etc.) was the best available for a 2". Even out of the short barrel, with no tough copper jacket to peel back, the soft lead was likely to expand at least to some degree. This was particularly true of the Remington brand, which seemd to have the softest lead alloy of the "big three" makers. (Winchester's was the hardest, and occasionally did fail to expand. Federal, no longer in the catalog, was in between.)

The Gold Dot has lighter recoil and superior accuracy, by comparison to the FBI load. It is more likely to expand, and to expand more dramatically.

The FBI load still remains an excellent choice if the 135 grain +P Gold Dot is not available, and if a revolver under 14 ounces is going to be used.

I am not aware of any 147 grain lead hollow point ever made for .38 Special. Original poster may have run across a typo somewhere. 147 grain JHP loads have been made for .38 Special, but FWIW I've never been impressed with any of them, and have never recommended them.

Best,
Mas

 

[DawgFvr]

Very exciting...and quite an honor to have Massad Ayoob post on here. If the Gold Dots are his choice in carry...well, I think that pretty much settles it then for me. Still....I just cannot find any downside to these copper top DPX.
Mas...if you ever come back to this thread...I know what you prefer, but would love to have your comments on the DPX anyhoo...thanx in advance.

The latter portion of the below thread talks about DPX testing...very positve results BTW:
http://www.gunthorp.com/ammo basics.htm

 

[Confederate]

I, too, appreciate all the feedback (especially from Mr. Ayoob).

Some years ago, my mother was home alone when the doorbell rang. She went downstairs and began to open the door when something stopped her, call it a gut instinct. She looked out the glass side windows and saw a large black male pressed against the door ready to push it in when someone turned the knob.

She rapped on the window and asked what the man wanted. He answered that he'd been involved in an accident and needed help. She declined to open the door after which he began trying to force his way in. The man was in his 20s, heavy set, and he had a blue beanie on and a navy jacket. His two teeth in the front were chipped and he looked dangerous.

As my mother went to call the police and the man continued to try to get into the house. It was a bitter cold day and when the police showed up, the man was soon found in her neighbor's house. He was walking around with a poker from the fireplace. Fortunately, no one was home there, but this guy had a long history of violent assaults, including rape.

I put my mother through a six-lesson firearms course conducted by a friend of mine, because the incident unnerved me when I heard about it. Just a few years ago, someone also tried to break into her back porch. Whoever it was shattered the sliding door window, but couldn't break through. Recently I checked her revolver and she'd bought a box of 158gr lead round nose cartridges. She's now a bit...ummm...seasoned to be using full magnum rounds, but I wanted to get her some decent .38s. And for good measure I had ADT install a home alarm system.

As our criminal "justice" system continues to let these animals back out onto the streets, it's becoming more difficult for decent people to protect themselves. My mother has a stainless Security-Six and the loads (above) sound like they fit the bill.

 

[massad ayoob]

Dawg, the DPX looks very promising in gelatin testing, but I haven't run across any actual shootings with it in .38 Special.

 

[massad ayoob]

Correction of typo in Post #33:

That should have read, "If revolver OVER 14 ounces is to be used."

 

[Confederate]

I'm still at a loss as to why a 110gr JHP wouldn't be better from a short barreled revolver. I have a some trust in gelatin data, but actual shootings helps even more. I recall the old Justice Department travesty and wonder how heavy lead bullets can expand from short barreled revolvers.

 

[timothy75]

Quality bullet design is what allows expansion in heavier bullets. 110gr bullets expand nicley at 38 special velocities but lack the weight to penetrate to the vitals of the threat. Shallow wounds wont stop an atacker.

 

[Confederate]

Well, I know that's the case with .357, but I thought it might be better with .38 Spc velocities. I have a friend who used to be a federal agent and that's what he carried in his snubbie.

In .357, the 110s have been known to blow open in heavy clothing. In .38 Spc snubbies it has penetrated vitals okay.

 

[ugaarguy]

In .357, the 110s have been known to blow open in heavy clothing. In .38 Spc snubbies it has penetrated vitals okay.

It also depends on bullet constuction. Is it jacketed or plain lead? Semi Jacket? Lighter jacket like a Gold Dot or heavier jacket like an XTP? Further, bullet shape and hollowpoint cavity size are factors.