Need a good 9MM load for a Ruger PC9

[Robert Westcott]

Looking for a good load for my Ruger PC9 at 100 yards with 124g JRN. Suggestions?

 

[Walkalong]

Looking for a light plinker for 00 yards, or a full power load?

Lots of good powders for either of these, what powders do you have?

Welcome to THR

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

If you want to reach 100 yds with any authority, it's going to need to be a full power load.

Many, many suggestions in any of several manuals. I would use a powder in the burn range of AA#7, which I understand as having been designed specifically for that job.

 

[LiveLife]

Welcome to THR.

When I did load development for carbine loads at 50/100 yards, I found following with 124 gr vs 115/100 gr loads:

• Bullet drop (Vertical stringing) is more significant at 100 yards dependent on your muzzle velocity variance
• Lighter faster bullet will produce less bullet drop at 100 yards
• 115 gr bullet around 1300 fps at muzzle of 16" carbine barrel will drop about 10 inches at 100 yards (Heavier 124 gr bullet will drop even more)
• So smaller muzzle velocity variance will produce smaller groups (Or shotgun pattern) at 100 yards
• If your muzzle velocity is close to supersonic, your bullet will travel through transonic speed wobble down to subsonic which can affect bullet trajectory
• Bullet speed will decrease around 100 fps for each 50 yards of travel
• To get smaller groups at 100 yards, work on identifying loads that produce smallest 50 yard groups first

There are some who posted ridiculously small groups at 100 yards with Pistol Caliber Carbines and I am skeptical as "routinely", I do not get such small groups. My 10 round group sizes are more like 5 inches with smaller being around 3 inches.


Speed of sound is 1125 fps. To reduce bullet drop and transonic wobble, I prefer to use lighter 115 gr bullet or even lighter 95/100 gr bullets with higher muzzle velocities so they could remain supersonic all the way to 100 yard target as you will lose about 200 fps to 100 yard target. My 100 gr load's muzzle velocities are just below 1500 fps (1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps). Another option is to use subsonic load at muzzle to avoid the transonic wobble issue.


My reference benchmark for 9mm accuracy is Atlanta Arms 115 gr FMJ AMU (1.130" OAL, 1150 fps) with accuracy requirement of ten-shot groups at 50 yards with an average group size not to exceed 1.5 inches that are "designed for extreme accuracy at 50 yards and is used by the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Service Pistol team for service pistol matches." - https://atlantaarms.com/products/9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html
http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/jr-american-flag-carbine-review/

My 50 yard 10 shot groups with RMR 100 gr HM RN (Yes, with MIXED range brass) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-3#post-10245856

Which is on par with what Guns & Ammo produced with their JR carbine at 50 yards (1.2"-1.7" shot groups).

Promo load produced less muzzle velocity variance than HP-38 load and smaller 100 yard group. (1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps)

 

[drband]

Welcome to THR.

When I did load development for carbine loads at 50/100 yards, I found following with 124 gr vs 115/100 gr loads:

• Bullet drop (Vertical stringing) is more significant at 100 yards dependent on your muzzle velocity variance
• Lighter faster bullet will produce less bullet drop at 100 yards
• 115 gr bullet around 1300 fps at muzzle of 16" carbine barrel will drop about 10 inches at 100 yards (Heavier 124 gr bullet will drop even more)
• So smaller muzzle velocity variance will produce smaller groups (Or shotgun pattern) at 100 yards
• If your muzzle velocity is close to supersonic, your bullet will travel through transonic speed wobble down to subsonic which can affect bullet trajectory
• Bullet speed will decrease around 100 fps for each 50 yards of travel
• To get smaller groups at 100 yards, work on identifying loads that produce smallest 50 yard groups first

There are some who posted ridiculously small groups at 100 yards with Pistol Caliber Carbines and I am skeptical as "routinely", I do not get such small groups. My 10 round group sizes are more like 5 inches with smaller being around 3 inches.


Speed of sound is 1125 fps. To reduce bullet drop and transonic tumble, I prefer to use lighter 115 gr bullet or even lighter 95/100 gr bullets with higher muzzle velocities so they could remain supersonic all the way to 100 yard target as you will lose about 200 fps to 100 yard target. My 100 gr load's muzzle velocities are just below 1500 fps (1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps). Another option is to use subsonic load at muzzle to avoid the transonic wobble issue.


My reference benchmark for 9mm accuracy is Atlanta Arms 115 gr FMJ AMU (1.130" OAL, 1150 fps) with accuracy requirement of ten-shot groups at 50 yards with an average group size not to exceed 1.5 inches that are "designed for extreme accuracy at 50 yards and is used by the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Service Pistol team for service pistol matches." - https://atlantaarms.com/products/9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html
http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/jr-american-flag-carbine-review/

My 50 yard 10 shot groups with RMR 100 gr HM RN (Yes, with MIXED range brass) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-3#post-10245856

Which is on par with what Guns & Ammo produced with their JR carbine at 50 yards (1.2"-1.7" shot groups).

Promo load produced less muzzle velocity variance than HP-38 load and smaller 100 yard group. (1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps)

This is great info, and should help cut my process time in half or better. I’m planning 9mm PCC loads with coated RN bullets from Acme. I’ve got a 9mm Hi-Point carbine to try them out in.

 

[rfwobbly]

When I did load development for carbine loads at 50/100 yards, I found following with 124gr vs 115/100gr loads:

• Bullet drop (Vertical stringing) is more significant at 100 yards dependent on your muzzle velocity variance
• Lighter faster bullet will produce less bullet drop at 100 yards
• 115gr bullet around 1300 fps at muzzle of 16" carbine barrel will drop about 10 inches at 100 yards (Heavier 124gr bullet will drop even more)

This makes complete sense. The only reason the bullet drops is gravity. Gravity's pull is the same on all objects. Therefore, a bullet traveling faster is able to go father down range before it drops a given distance.

That being the case, maybe you should look at 95 and 100gr bullets originally intended for the 380Auto, which also fit 9x19 Luger.

 

[LiveLife]

This makes complete sense. The only reason the bullet drops is gravity. Gravity's pull is the same on all objects. Therefore, a bullet traveling faster is able to go father down range before it drops a given distance.

That being the case, maybe you should look at 95 and 100gr bullets originally intended for the 380Auto, which also fit 9x19 Luger.

Exactly and this idea was first suggested to me by Walkalong and he was correct.

Many did suggest the use of heavier 124/147 gr bullets being more accurate than lighter 100/115 gr bullets but in my limited range testing at 50/100 yards, I have found lighter bullet loads to consistently produce smaller groups.

This post compiled my chrono data of various carbine loads I tested for reference (If you look at the velocities measured 10 feet from muzzle, while most loads may not experience transonic wobble at 50 yards from 100 fps reduction, many will for 100 yards from 200 fps reduction) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-4#post-10338994

With retirement upon me, I hope to continue range testing where I left off, especially using a DIY hybrid pistol/carbine optical machine rest (Once finished building). One of these is testing RMR's 95 gr FMJ along with 115 gr JHP/FP Match Winner.

 

[rfwobbly]

With retirement upon me, I hope to continue range testing where I left off, especially using a DIY hybrid pistol/carbine optical machine rest (Once finished building). One of these is testing RMR's 95 gr FMJ along with 115 gr JHP/FP Match Winner.

1. I hope that's retirement from a steady paycheck, and not retirement from this board. I enjoy your thorough posts.

2. An interesting addition to your testing would be the Berry Mfg 115gr Hollow Base RN. I don't usually nominate plated bullets for the long distance accuracy column, but these are thicker plated and have the longer bearing area which might help stability.

 

[ray15]

Looking for a good load for my Ruger PC9 at 100 yards with 124g JRN. Suggestions?

I'd go full-power, which in 9mm is very well served by Hodgdon CFE Pistol or Alliant BE86. Both have websites with extensive load data.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/

 

[LiveLife]

An interesting addition to your testing would be the Berry Mfg 115gr Hollow Base RN. I don't usually nominate plated bullets for the long distance accuracy column, but these are thicker plated and have the longer bearing area which might help stability.

Yes, I have already done Berry's 115 gr HBRN-TP vs 124 gr HBRN-TP and like both of them - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-and-herco-for-jacketed-lead-plated-bullets.745656/

They are rated to 1500 fps and I will include them in my 50/100 yard carbine testing - https://www.berrysmfg.com/products/preferred-plated-bullets/plated-pistol/9mm

I'd go full-power, which in 9mm is very well served by Hodgdon CFE Pistol or Alliant BE86. Both have websites with extensive load data.

I have actually done fast vs slow burning powders, including BE-86 and was disappointed it didn't produce smaller groups than faster burning powders.

I think in blowback carbines, faster burning powders provide quicker case mouth expansion and sealing with chamber before bolt moves back. I certainly plan to test BE-86/W244/CFE-Pistol and other slower burning powders for 50/100 yard carbine testing.

 

[ray15]

I have actually done fast vs slow burning powders, including BE-86 and was disappointed it didn't produce smaller groups than faster burning powders.

I would try both routes also - Sport Pistol would be my first stop for a 'fast' option - but would be more confident of staying supersonic to 100 yards with a 124 with BE86. Rightly or wrongly.

 

[LiveLife]

I would try both routes also (Sport Pistol would be my first stop for the 'fast' option) but would be more confident of staying supersonic to 100 yards with a 124 with BE86. Rightly or wrongly.

Agree on Sport Pistol as I now consider Sport Pistol replacement for W231/HP-38 that meters better, cleaner burning and less temperature sensitive.

One myth I would like to confirm/bust is the notion that accurate pistol loads will be accurate carbine loads as well. While I do thing this is the case for 25 yards and perhaps to 50 yards, but not sure if that's the case for 100 yards.

I hope that's retirement from a steady paycheck, and not retirement from this board. I enjoy your thorough posts.

Yes, independence from work and goal of my retirement is to conduct more objective factual load testing and myth busting to the benefit of THR members and guests.

 

[Walkalong]

I shoot my 9MM plinker load which is a plated 124 Gr @ 1050ish from a 5" barrel at 100 yards all the time. Drop is more than full powered but as long as drop is consistent (Small ES) then it isn't hard to get the range and make consistent hits.

Yes, faster is easier, but slow isn't hard.

 

[LiveLife]

Drop is more than full powered but as long as drop is consistent (Small ES) then it isn't hard to get the range and make consistent hits.

I agree that less ES in velocity will produce smaller groups regardless of the bullet drop.

But what I have seen is when bullet drops do occur due to velocity variance, lighter faster 100/115 gr loads will drop less than heavier slower 124/147 gr loads translated to smaller vertical stringing. When I started doing 124 gr 100 yard testing, I got elongated groups/patterns compared to more rounded groups/patterns of 100 gr loads. Since I suspected this vertical stringing was likely from variation in velocities, I stopped my testing and focused on eliminating reloading variables such as more consistent neck tension/no bullet setback which were successfully myth busted - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Now that I identified headstamp brass cases and bullets that won't produce bullet setback, I plan on continuing carbine load testing at 50/100 yards as there are notions that need to be myth busted.

 

[Walkalong]

Velocity in its self does not reduce vertical string, good shooting and a small ES does. At 100 yards there isn't enough flight time difference to worry with.

Since I suspected this vertical stringing was likely from variation in velocities,

Right. And of course we need to have a consistent hold, we can induce vertical stringing with our gun handling with pistol just like we can with inconsistent shoulder pressure with rifle.

If you can shoot the difference in vertical with a slow load vs a fast load when the slower load has a slightly bigger ES (Or vice versa), my hat is off to you.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Lyman's #49 recommends Power Pistol as the starting point for 9mm carbine loads.

It's the most accurate powder listed for 5 of their 6 loads tested in a Ruger PC-9. Top velocities too.

You do have a reloading manual, don't you?

 

[LiveLife]

Right. And of course we need to have a consistent hold, we can induce vertical stringing with our gun handling with pistol just like we can with inconsistent shoulder pressure with rifle.

My 50/100 yard groups were shot with carbine on bipod with firm push forward. I agree on the consistent hold hence why I am building the machine rest for carbine testing.

Lyman's #49 recommends Power Pistol as the starting point for 9mm carbine loads.

It's the most accurate powder listed for 5 of their 6 loads tested in a Ruger PC-9. Top velocities too.

I am also using Lyman #49 and yes, I do agree on accuracy of Power Pistol for 9mm as BE-86 at almost the same burn rate shattered all of my previous reference loads for accuracy except WST.

My experience with USPSA minor power factor loads around 130 PF is that W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol and faster burn rate powders produced more accurate loads than slower burn rate powders for pistols. But as others already posted, my carbine loads are essentially near max to max loads and I believe further range testing is required using a more stable platform of machine rest to make conclusive determination as to what burn rate powders produce more accurate blowback carbine loads.

To me, I do not have enough data set to make that determination at this point.