Need help confused

[Axis II]

Just got tried to make my first 223 batch and Lyman 49th says 24.3 min max 27gr

Hornady 9th says 20.8min to 23.2max

Hodgdon.com says 23min 25.3max

Hornady is calling it soot point the others spritzer, the bullets I have are 55gr Hornady soft points w/c 223rem savage axis 1:9twist heavy barrel. H335 powder


With all these charges being so far off I'm getting worried please help.

 

[243winxb]

Start at 20.8 gr and work up. Pressure signs.

 

[BigBore45]

there you go/l\ follow that data. its there bullet.

 

[Rule3]

As indicated above use their data. But just so you don't feel confused all by yourself see my recent thread and I have been doing this for some time.

The data for H335 is all over, Read the thread and you will find most are above the Hornady data BUT do START with what they have. Load say 10 or so rounds with the start load, then move up the next charge etc.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=783834

 

[rg1]

Don't mean to suggest anything not safe but in this case some of the data you mentioned is too hot and some too low. Hornady has been lazy and posted the same .223 55 grain H335 data in the last few of their manuals. In all my tests in one bolt action and a few AR 15's I trust Hodgdon's max load data. Good idea to compare all data sources and most often start with an average of all their start charges and work up. In this case you could start at around 22 grains but I wouldn't exceed Hodgdon's maximum. Your rifle, primer used, cases used, overall length, and bullet used makes a difference. Most find good loads in bolt rifles and AR's from 24-25 grains of H335 using Hornady's 55 gr. Spire Points or 55 FMJ's. Hornady's recommended overall length with the 55 SP is 2.200". Hornady used a 26" bolt rifle with1 in 12 twist in their tests. My tests with Hornady's data doesn't give near the velocity that they said they get in their test in my rifles. I agree with you that for new reloaders the load data for 55 grain bullets in ALL the manuals is the most confusing of all calibers and probably the most loaded caliber and bullet weight loaded at present. Only option is starting low and working up. A chronograph is helpful in situations like this even though it only shows velocity and not pressure. It's the same for Winchester 748 powder finding wide differences in max loads using 55 gr. bullets. Strange but Hornady's max data for Win 748 at 26.4 grains I find realistic while other sources have higher maximums. Just be careful and work up looking for good accuracy from your rifle with no pressure signs.

 

[Reloadron]

Welcome again to another interesting phase of hand loading. Yes, there it is in the image 243 winxb was kind enough to post and looks the same as my Hornady 9th Edition. Using H335 with those 55 grain bullets a min of 20.8 and a max of 23.2. My Sierra 50th Anniversary says H335 min 22.9 max 25.9. A good example of what happens manual to manual especially with rounds like the 223 Remington. Hornady test rifle was a Remington 700 26" 1:12 twist and Sierra used a Colt AR-15A2 HBAR with a 20" 1:7 twist barrel.

We could run more but we would just see the same thing, a big difference in the published suggested loads. Many times where the suggested minimum exceeds someone elses suggested maximum. Until you get real proficient with hand loading and know how to look at your spent cases for pressure signs I would run with the bullet manufacturer's data or the powder manufacturer's data. Using H335 for what you have I would likely try a start of around 22.0 grains and see what you get. The 223 Remington in a good heavy bolt action rifle is pretty forgiving.

Get used to the disparity in load data as it is as common as can be. Smart to ask and if you look through the forums you will see the same question countless times.

Ron

 

[Axis II]

thanks guys!

If it was .5 or even 1gr different I would have said okay and did it but seeing the major jumps and lows I said um yeah im waiting until I ask.

I know by reading low charges are bad so seeing 20gr vs 23-24gr had me guessing.

now I broke down a z max/v max-green tip 55gr someone loaded for me 2yrs ago and it looked similar to h335 but he had like 24.7gr in it well what didn't fly all over the desk when I pulled the bullet with pliers, maybe a bad idea but I was curious. the rounds seem to sound and feel different when I shot them, I know never use someones reloads but I had no clue about that at the time and they were 200rds free. im guessing these we max and only a few cracked necks. that got me wondering too.

 

[Grumulkin]

With all these charges being so far off I'm getting worried please help.

You have gotten some good advice but there are some things I'd like to add. Some reasons loading manuals have conflicting information is because of variables such as length of throat, chamber dimension, powder lot, different case batches, throat erosion, bore diameter, bore smoothness, etc. Yes, I know the .223 bore is supposed to measure .224 inches but some bores can be slightly off one way or another.

It's important to know when the pressure is too low as well as when it's too high. If the primers are backing out or there is quite a bit of soot on neck or body of the case, pressure is too low.

When working up a load, usually groups will start out wide, will narrow to a point and then widen again. Stop where the groups are the smallest. Other times you'll notice that in rifles the impact point will abruptly elevate quite a bit from prior groups; many times this means maximum pressure is being approached.

 

[fouled bore]

It's important to know when the pressure is too low as well as when it's too high. If the primers are backing out or there is quite a bit of soot on neck or body of the case, pressure is too low.

Can you explain why primers will back out when the pressure is too low?

 

[Ironicaintit]

Im convinced Hornady manuals err on the low side, to legally excuse themselves from careless handloading.
I dont even refer to my copy any more.
My best 55 grain .223 loads are 1.2 - 1.5 grains over their listed max.

But still, when developing a load;
I research, and end up starting with the highest "low" value I can find, then work up from there.

 

[gamestalker]

I agree, Hornady does run a little cooler than some of the other's. IMO, you would be fine starting at 22.0 or even 22.5 grs. with that Savage bolt action. FYI, just make sure you don't jam them into the lands, and pressures should be just fine.

Your going to enjoy this wonderful hobby. Beyond the reduction in cost per round, there's just something especially satisfying about making your own tailored ammunition, compared to buying a box of factory.

Be safe!

GS

 

[otisrush]

Your going to enjoy this wonderful hobby. Beyond the reduction in cost per round, there's just something especially satisfying about making your own tailored ammunition, compared to buying a box of factory.

GS

I've been trying to explain the feeling described above to some shooting friends of mine. I recently said to them "When we were younger and busy with our kids, when we wanted pancakes on Saturday mornings, I grabbed the mix out of the pantry. It provided a fun time and the kids loved it. But frankly, who knows what's in that stuff? Now I have the time to twiddle and tweak my own pancake recipe. Not only is doing that fun - but eating them is fun too! It's synergistic!"

I kind of can't imagine shooting factory now for the stuff I load. I have no idea what I'm getting. Heck - those loads might even have MSG and trans fats in them.

 

[Axis II]

I agree, Hornady does run a little cooler than some of the other's. IMO, you would be fine starting at 22.0 or even 22.5 grs. with that Savage bolt action. FYI, just make sure you don't jam them into the lands, and pressures should be just fine.

Your going to enjoy this wonderful hobby. Beyond the reduction in cost per round, there's just something especially satisfying about making your own tailored ammunition, compared to buying a box of factory.

Be safe!

GS

if I load the 55gr sp to the books o.a.c.l or o.a.l or to the canellure I should be fine right?

I have a dummy that I made and colored it in and chambered it and no marks.

 

[Reloadron]

if I load the 55gr sp to the books o.a.c.l or o.a.l or to the canellure I should be fine right?

I have a dummy that I made and colored it in and chambered it and no marks.

In a word, yes.
Eventually you will be into tweaking and peaking your loads tailored for your guns. Today I hope to get some 223 and 308 loaded. The brass is waiting, primed and all.

Ron

 

[otisrush]

Yes - I believe you're correct. But I'll add a few recommendations re: actually firing the first few rounds from experiences I've had.

When you decide on COL, charge weight, etc. and loaded up a couple of dummies (no powder and primer), if they'll be used in something like an AR like you described, I would put a dummie in the mag with the action open, then close the action letting the bolt close under full force. (i.e. don't ride the bolt closed so it closes softly). Then eject the dummie and see if the COL has changed. You want to be sure the force of closing the bolt under full force doesn't shorten the COL.

I would then load up just a few rounds - maybe 5-10. Don't go to town on loading up lots of stuff until you've fired a few rounds of a new load. You want to be sure 1) you're not getting signs of high pressure and 2) you want to be sure they function well. "Functioning well" is more important for a semi like the AR.

Take those few rounds (no more than you're willing to pull apart if you need to afterward) to the range and fire just one. Inspect the fired cartridge closely, looking for signs of high pressure. I actually have concluded there is some disagreement as to what constitutes high pressure. But unusually high amounts of primer flattening (the rounded edges between the primer and primer pocket get filled in with primer metal), bulged case, case won't extract, split brass, etc. are signs of high pressure. Also confirm the fired bullet actually left the barrel. Either be sure you've got a hole on a target or visually inspect the barrel to ensure it is clear.

I also check to see, if my gun has a magazine, if rounds being in the magazine but not in the chamber when the gun is fired have their COL changed as a result of being subjected to normal recoil while sitting in the mag. So I'll confirm the COL of the rounds before I put them in the gun. I'll put one in the mag and one in the chamber, fire the one in the chamber, then eject the unfired one that had been in the mag and see if the COL has changed.

On a number of occasions I've taken 4-5 ziplock baggies, each with 5-7 rounds in them, the only difference between each baggie being .1 gr of powder, so I could pressure check each load. If the first from a baggie doesn't produce concerning results I'll shoot the remaining and see how they group. I know the ladder process is the recognized method for finding the optimum load - but my brain hasn't reached that point yet.

OR