Need help figuring out this side by side rifle/shotgun

[mike240se]

Hi, i have a antique rifle/shotgun side by side. i did an online appraisal and they only told me that it was 19th century european and was probably worth $2000 but could be worth much more and needed more attention. yeah a waste of money for sure. so i figured i should come here where people REALLY know about guns

it has nice engraving of a man hunting with a peace pipe, a hound chasing game, various game, a hidden ammo compartment in the butt stock that holds 2 shotguns and 2 rifle shells.

the rifle was mic'ed at .500 inches. the shotgun at .800 inches. its breach loading.

i have pictures up at http://www.pcsnj.net/gunpics they are in that folder and there are better pictures under the original pics folder. i would really appreciate some help figuring out what this great find is and what it may be worth. it has some monograms too.

thanks

mike

 

[SDC]

This is a "Cape gun" (called a "Cape gun", because settlers heading for the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa usually preferred to have a single combination side by side rifle/shotgun, instead of one of each). The proofmarks show it's German, but this is a nice enough piece that it should also have maker's marks somewhere on it, possibly along the top of the rib between the barrels. In short, we're going to need more info. It also appears to have Damascus barrels, so it wouldn't be safe to shoot, but it still looks like it would be a collectible item.

 

[McCall911]

What SDC said.

About the only things I could add:

That shotgun bore with a .800 inch diameter would indicate that it's a 9.1 gauge. (My guess is that it's a 10 gauge, but it undoubtedly wouldn't be shootable anyway.)

The rifle bore size would indicate that it's something like a British 500 Nitro Express for black powder, a 577/500 BP, or a really obscure European like the 12.17 Remington.

Sorry I couldn't help with ID'ing the manufacturer.

 

[mike240se]

thanks so much for your replies. the proof marks are the crown with the U under it right? I was hoping that was the manufacturer logo. Did you see the pic on the website with the gold oval with the two letters? I assumed that was someone's initials. I dont really know what the monogram on the bottom means it looks like it says no. 6971 col. a. (is that like colonel andrews or something like that?)

thanks for the info about not being able to shoot, i knew it was demascus but didnt know that meant i cant shoot it.

thanks

mike

 

[mike240se]

ok here is the pic of the gold oval that may be the manf. logo, i thought it was someones name but it looks like its part of the gun.

I think it says AT or AJ or something like that.

mike

 

[SDC]

The letters with crowns over them (U & S) show that this gun passed proof testing, and there should be some more on the water table (the flat part of the receiver, below where the firing-pins come out to strike the primers). The monogram on the stock looks like "A.T." which were probably the owner's initials, but there should still be markings somewhere else on the gun to show who made it; enough work went into it that I have a hard time believing that the builder wouldn't have marked it with a name and/or address. The guy smoking the pipe would be a German "jaeger" ("hunter"), which goes with the hunting scenes on the rest of the gun. One thing that might help with determing a value would be to find out what it's actually chambered for, but this would take some careful measuring and/or a Cerrosafe chamber cast of each barrel.

 

[mike240se]

did you see this pic on the website?

see below...

 

[SDC]

Yes, but those are the bottoms of the barrels; there is usually additional information on the water table; those marks show that this gun's serial number is "6917", and give the load that the rifle barrel was regulated to shoot with.

 

[McCall911]

thanks for the info about not being able to shoot, i knew it was demascus but didnt know that meant i cant shoot it.

Don't hold me to that, because I'm fairly sure someone will come along and tell me I'm dead wrong. But generally older guns like that wouldn't chamber modern shells anyway because their chamberings were shorter.

 

[mike240se]

SDC, i will check the water table and the top for the manufacturers logo, will it be a logo or a name or something like that? Does the load info say the chambering? My friend is a tool and die maker and a master welder and he could measure anything that needs to be measured probably with his micrometers, etc.

mike

 

[Jim Watson]

This is very likely what is known as a guild gun. A town would have a number of small shops, everybody belonging to the Gunmakers' Guild but with a specialty. Barrels, stocks, receivers, hammers, triggers, etc., and then an assembler. Many of these guns had no maker's name, children of many fathers. There would often not even be a brand name, Europeans seemed not to be bothered by the lack.

Damascus barrels are not generally considered safe for use now. When new, most were strong enough only for black powder, and their continuous bands of welds have not gotten stronger over the decades. In addition, shotgun chambers in those days were only 65mm - 2 9/16" long, instead of the current 2 3/4", which raises pressure a bit more. Heaven knows what caliber and chamber the rifle barrel really is.

(Yes, I know the British have a strong tradition of nitro prooved damascus shotgun barrels and loads tailored to their strengths and weaknesses. This ain't one of them.)

 

[SDC]

Does the load info say the chambering?

No, it just gives a bullet weight and powder weight, but you can't go by the powder weight, since you don't know what powder they used anyway. If you do a chamber cast, you need to let us know the rim and head dimensions, the case length, how far up any shoulder is, and the neck dimension.

 

[mike240se]

can my friend do the measurements you need without doing a cast? he says he has every tool needed to measure what ever you need mesaured but he cant do casts. so if you can tell me what measurement you need he can get them.

what do you think is a fair price to sell this gun? i have had people ask what i would want for it, and i have no clue what to tell them.

interesting about the guild gun, does this make it very rare and valuable? like if i sell this for $4k, will i possibly find out a week later its worth 50k? i have no clue about these type of guns.

thansk

mike

 

[SDC]

A chamber cast is ridiculously EASY to do with Cerrosafe (all you need to do is be able to boil water), and it eliminates the common mistakes of trying to guess where certain points in the chamber are; this link gives some info on how to do it, and Cerrosafe comes with instructions; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=12989

 

[mike240se]

ok what measurements from the cerrosafe do you need?

 

[SDC]

To determine the proper chambering, you need the rim diameter, the head diameter (just below the rim), the overall case length (just make sure the cast is long enough to include the leade in the chamber), how far up from the rim any shoulder is, and the neck diameter. A picture showing how sharply-tapered the neck is would probably help too.

 

[Jim K]

IMHO, if someone offers you $4k, grab the money and run.

Jim

 

[mike240se]

thats the problem, people are asking me what i want. i have no idea what to tell them.

 

[mike240se]

thats the problem, people are asking me what i want. i have no idea what to tell them. what do you think is fair to ask for?