Need help with a Damascus Shotgun

[sixshooter]

I need to take pictures of this thing. Its a double barrel with external hammers (the locks remind me of my dad's old flintlocks!). It has "BELGIUM FINE DAMASCUS" on top of the barrels and "JANSSEN SONS & CO" on the locks. There are various other (what I'm assuming are) proofing marks under the barrels. If I had a halfway decent camera I'd take pictures of all of them, but my cell phone camera isn't precise enough. Only real damage (aside from rust on the barrels) is a broken firing pin on one of the barrels.

It would be fun for me to restore and shoot this thing, but iirc Damascus barrels are far too weak for modern loads. Anyone have any tips on loading and shooting one of these?

 

[robhof]

1st; have a competent smith check it out and you can get CAS shotgun loads or if you reload shotgun, you can look up b/p loads for them. We have a few CAS shooters that are useing genuine antique Damascus doubles for matches (I wouldn't just because of their historical value), they're also using 2nd generation Colts as their pistols so I guess if you can afford to be totally authentic, go for it, but their's have held up to heavy use so if your's checks out, by all means put some rounds through it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Janssen was an established Belgian gunmaker from 1867 til 1954.
Looks like a lower middle grade gun to me, from the pictures at:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies i j k/a janssen fils et cie gb.htm

Bear in mind that it was intended for and proof tested only with black powder and in 65mm/2.6" shells at that. I would not push my luck with smokeless powder loads and would be cautious about black.

 

[CraigC]

but iirc Damascus barrels are far too weak for modern loads.

This is a myth. Many damascus barrels were nitro-proofed. A while back The Double Gun Journal took two identical Parkers, one "fluid steel" and one damascus and overloaded them until they blew. The nitro proofed damascus barrels held on longer than the fluid steel barrels.

 

[MachIVshooter]

This is a myth. Many damascus barrels were nitro-proofed. A while back The Double Gun Journal took two identical Parkers, one "fluid steel" and one damascus and overloaded them until they blew. The nitro proofed damascus barrels held on longer than the fluid steel barrels.

While it's true that the twist steel barrels were often stronger than the fluid steel of the day, time takes it's toll on them. Flux from the manufacturing process and corrosion from BP weakens the welds. Even the best smiths may not be able to gaurantee that the barrels haven't suffered from this deterioration and are strong enough to shoot today. Unless it's smooth and shiny bore, I wouldn't even think about firing it.

Also, even very small dings and dents in the barrels turn a twist steel SG into a wallhanger.

And I wouldn't use smokeless in any shotgun inteded for BP. Old handguns are one thing; the metal is thicker, the charges smaller, and the gun out in front of you. I don't feel it's worth the risk with a shoulder fired arm that might rip your face off if it lets go.

 

[RyanM]

Not all damascus barrels were nitro-proofed, either. Given the number of obsolete proofhouse markings there are, it's prudent to recommend BP in all of them (once they've been determined safe to fire by a knowledgeable gunsmith).

Anyway, assuming it's only BP proofed, definitely do not use any smokeless ammo, not even "cowboy" loads. The pressure curve is very different between BP and smokeless.

For BP loading, you generally want to use equal volumes of powder and shot. A "square load," where the height of the powder/shot is equal to the diameter of the bore, often patterns the best. In 12 gauge, that's 1-3/16 to 1-1/4 ounces of shot over 77 grains of FFg powder.

For safety's sake, I'd be hesitant to exceed about 3 drams (82 gr powder, 1-5/16 oz. shot).

 

[sixshooter]

thanks for the input, all. Looking down the barrel with the naked eye I can see that the barrels are not nice and shiny, but I can't tell if its rust or globs of dust and dirt. Either way, it's probably best for me to keep this piece as it has been - display only.

 

[w_houle]

Here are some nice shells to load
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,314.html
I don't know how well plastic would hold up, but have always been told that all brass shells work best.

 

[tango2echo]

I had a guy bring me a beautiful SXS Damascus barreled 12ga about 5 years ago to inspect. It was of Belgian manufacture in the late 1930's IIRC, though for the life of me I do not recall the make as it was obscure. The gun was nearly rust free and in good shape. He asked, "Well, would you shoot it?" My reply was "Maybe with LIGHT blackpowder loads, but not at all with modern smokeless loads." "I would put it in the safe and I strongly advise you to do the same." The next day I heard he blew part of his lower lip off and had to be rushed to the hospital after firing ONE 12ga Dove Load. Thankfully it was in the right barrel and not the left. Had it been the left he may have lost his life. So, if it were mine, it would be a safe queen.

t2e

 

[Jefferson Herb]

Twist shotguns

I have an 1886 Elsie Hammerless that gets 1oz and 75gr ffg with fiber wads.Plastic hulls will last 2 loadings and start showing holes in plastic,while plastic wads will load up in barrel,fiber wads are best.
Belgin barrels are Braized,while English barrels are soldered,Barrels should RING to be considered for use. If you want to shoot it,and want to proof it,tie it down and fire from distance;this may destroy shotgun if barrels go.
I hav'nt seen many belgin guns,most I run across are somewhat loose in lockup,and there were a lot of cheap hardware guns.
Personally,I enjoy pre 1898 guns and will always be on the lookout for usable firearms.

 

[arcticap]

Subgauge chamber inserts for damascus guns?

Someone has asked me about these so now I'm curious.
Can sub-gauge chamber inserts be used with these old guns to allow them to be safer to shoot?
Do these damascus guns have full length chambers or do the sub-gauge inserts need to be custom made or fitted?

Would using an insert allow for the use of any kind of smokeless target loads (regular or specialty powder) in an old gun that was in good shape otherwise or would they still be just for black powder loads?

Has anyone ever tried chamber inserts like these in an old BP shotgun?

http://www.gaugemate.com/custom.htm

http://www.chambermates.com/index.htm

They make a 16 to 28 and a 16 to 410... but they probably cost as much as the gun is worth.

http://www.littleskeeters.com/products.htm

These guys make 16 to 20, 24, 28, and 410... much less expensive, but they don't work so great, and are hard to reload without getting your hands very messy.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/vie...480&p=1486248&hilit=damascus+inserts#p1486248

 

[CraigC]

Can sub-gauge [chamber] inserts be used with these old guns to allow them to be safer to shoot?

Don't know, it would be interesting to find out. I know that I am very fond of the Briley .410 inserts for my little Merkel 28ga. Probably find out from them with just a phone call.

 

[trickshot]

sixshooter, I suggest you ask the guys on this forum
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php
They regularly shoot old Damascus cartridge shotguns, and they know a lot about them.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Has anyone ever tried chamber inserts like these in an old BP shotgun?

Haven't personally tried them, but investigated them heavily when I was considering using them in my Pieper hammer gun. The concensus from smiths is that a quality insert will allow you to run any modern load in an old twist shotgun. The Receivers are not the weak point. I was going to do the 12 to 20 conversion.

However, they are expensive, and will usually require reaming the chambers in the old shotguns. They also add a bit of weight, especially the longer ones. I decided I'd rather fit modern 12 ga. barrels to the old receivers and try to match the finish. I'll weigh in if I ever get around to it.

If you want to shoot it,and want to proof it,tie it down and fire from distance;this may destroy shotgun if barrels go

And if the welds hold for that proof, but become weaker, and then let go when you actually shoulder the thing? IIRC, the standard maximum temporary distortion was .002" for proofing, and that was with new barrels that hadn't suffered a century worth of corrsion from BP salts and acid flux.

If you wanna shoot an old, all original hammer gun, I'd find a Remington 1886 or the like with fluid steel tubes (some were, some weren't).

 

[Jefferson Herb]

Sleeves

Yes. If you look on LC SMITh collectors web,you can have Briley[sp] make custom tubes full length,and then use sub-modern trap loads. It adds weight,expensive if I remember right,and each tube is barrel dedicated.
You can use light bp loads,use same measure for powder /shot.20ga 1oz max12ga 1 1/4 oz max,10ga 1 1/2 oz max. Example, 45-70 hull is 75 gr and 1oz [aprox].This is the load I use in Elsie,and Pedersoli 20 ga perc sxs.
Gunsmith is good IDEA,but oldtimer who is familure with vintage guns.Barrels should ring,[another test is check with solvent any leakage is fail. [solvent/gas is thin viscosity and will pass thru hairline cracks]
BP loads should be below 6,000 psi,use fg if you are concerned.