Need Powder Charge for MBC IDP #4-XD Bullet

[Louca]

I think I would like to try the Missouri Bullet Company (MBC) IDP #4-XD bullet (.45 ACP .452, 200gn RNFP) for shooting IDPA and USPSA. The only quantity of powder I have on hand is WW231. Could anyone recommend a powder charge of 231 that would yield about 825 fps? I need at least 825 fps velocity to meet the minimum IDPA power factor of 165 (bullet mass x velocity / 1000).

For liability reasons, MBC cannot give out powder charge information, but others have written in with the charge levels they use. Unfortunately, I cannot find any data for 231.

From my Hornady and Sierra reloading manuals, I could take a guess at about 5.9 grains. Does anybody have any data for that particular bullet using 231 powder? I do have a tiny bit of Unique I could try, but no quantity for any decent number of rounds. Thanks.

Lou

 

[Speedster00]

I use those bullets but Im loading power pistol. Check handloads.com database.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

I think 5.9gr of W231 is going to put you way over your 825fps goal. I think somewhere between 4.8gr and 5.3gr will get you there.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

This has some 210 LSWC data that you can use.

 

[Louca]

Thanks guys. I got my data from extrapolating between two points for a jacketed 200 gn round in the Sierra manual (not a smart thing to do), and also from extrapolation in an old Hornady manual for a 200 gn lead round with no lube groove (also not a smart thing to do). So, glad I checked with someone else.

I guess I will just start low and work up the load like I am supposed to do. Just thought someone else may have done that already. Now I really must have a good chronograph! Thanks again.

Lou

 

[Louca]

Thanks guys. I got my data from extrapolating between two points for a jacketed 200 gn round in the Sierra manual (bad thing to do), and also from extrapolation in an old Hornady manual for a 200 gn lead round with no lube groove (also a bad thing to do). So, glad I checked with someone else.

I guess I will just start low and work up the load like I am supposed to do. Now I really must have a good chronograph! Just thought someone else may have done that already. Thanks again.

Lou

 

[orionengnr]

I don't have a chrony, and I'm not loading to make a certain result, but I use 5.0 (ish) gr, and that should put you very close. I do use the MBC, but I am using the "Bullseye #1" (200 gr SWC).

After checking my books, I came up with these:
--Speer #13 says that 5.0 of 231 will propel a 200 gr lead SWC (un-named)to 803 fps with a 4.4 inch barrel, so we are close.
--Hornady #7 says that 5.6 gr of 231 will propel an un-named 200 gr lead SWC to 850 fps, using a 5" 1911.

We are definitely in the ballpark.

 

[Louca]

I don't have a chrony, and I'm not loading to make a certain result

Yeah, and I am wondering how the IDPA shooters prove their loads meet the minimum power factor. I just went to a match last weekend and there wasn't any chronograph there.

All of the published W231 data I could find shows a 200 gn LSWC with 5.1 to 5.2 gn at 850 fps. I would guess the published data to be somewhat conservative.

Since I need at least 825 fps, I am thinking I might start at around 5.3 gn. My current load for a 200 gn LSWC for target shooting is 5.0 gn and it is a pretty light load (unknown velocity). I will eventually want to know what velocity my new load has.

Thanks.

Lou

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Most informal IDPA matches don't require a chronograph stage, but I believe that the state matches do. Generally it's more of an honor system.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a note, if you can find data for HP-38 you can use that data because HP-38 & W231 are the same exact powder.

With a 200gr Cast bullet using W231 Hodgdon lists a charge range of 4.4gr to 5.6gr and from a 5" barrel Hodgdon reports 916 fps with pressures of 16,900 CUP. I'm fairly sure you can easily achieve 825 fps with W231 without exceeding the SAAMI pressure limits. Even if you have to use slightly more powder or set the bullet slightly deeper to raise the pressures/velocities slightly you have room because the SAAMI limits for the 45 Auto are 21,000 PSI and the above load doesn't even hit 17,000 CUP.

My standard charge weight for W231 is 5.5gr with any 230gr bullet and 200gr Cast bullets. That charge exceeds 825fps from my 5" M1911A1.

 

[GaryL]

From the Lyman 49th for #452630 200gr bullet (#2 alloy):

Grn Dot start 5.1gr, 727fps, 11900 CUP
231 start 5.4gr, 769fps, 12700 CUP (max 6.1gr, 885fps, 16300 CUP)

I get ~785fps with 5.2gr Grn Dot and the MB IDP #4-XD bullet

So I'd say ArchAngelCD has you in the ballpark.

 

[Louca]

Just a note, if you can find data for HP-38 you can use that data because HP-38 & W231 are the same exact powder.

Holy cow, you're clairvoyant! I was just going to ask that and there your answer was!

My standard charge weight for W231 is 5.5gr with any 230gr bullet and 200gr Cast bullets. That charge exceeds 825fps from my 5" M1911A1.

Perfect! I want the load to be a little hotter, not only to meet the IDPA minimum, but also to expand the base ("obturate") the MBC bullet. It has a BHN of 18 so I want to be sure it seals properly.

Thanks guys.

 

[dickttx]

I use the Cowboy #4 (same bullet as yours but 12bn rather than 18bn) and 5.3gn of HP38 with a 1.195 oal.
I used 5.0gn for some time but when the weather cooled off I started having a problem with the gun going into battery, so I upped it to 5.3gn. No problems since. It feeds and shoots well in a Colt Rail Gun, an XSE Commander and a SR1911COM.

 

[Louca]

I use the Cowboy #4 (same bullet as yours but 12bn rather than 18bn)

Yes, according to MBC's technical page, comparitively softer lead (lower BHN) will need lighter charges to prevent lead vaporization:

A bullet which is too soft at a given pressure will experience excessive base expansion and vaporization of the lead, causing leading.

I am NOT saying your bullet is too soft. That whole technical page is a great read. But the real proof is in the amount of leading you get - that's what counts.

Lou

 

[Sam1911]

Most informal IDPA matches don't require a chronograph stage, but I believe that the state matches do. Generally it's more of an honor system.

Very few club level matches run ammo over a chronograph. Some upper level "Sanctioned" matches (state matches, regional matches, Nationals, etc.) do.

Usually after you load and make ready for one of the stages the Safety Officer will ask you to drop your mag and give him 6 rounds. They're put in a baggie with your competitor number on it and taken to the chronograph. Someone sits at the chrony all day and shoots folks' ammo over it to make sure they pass power floor. There's an appeals procedure if you don't, but if you don't pass eventually you are Disqualified.

 

[dickttx]

Yes, according to MBC's technical page, comparitively softer lead (lower BHN) will need lighter charges to prevent lead vaporization:

A bullet which is too soft at a given pressure will experience excessive base expansion and vaporization of the lead, causing leading.

I am NOT saying your bullet is too soft. That whole technical page is a great read. But the real proof is in the amount of leading you get - that's what counts.

Lou

According to the formula at MBC (and other places) the load I am using calculated to about a 10bhn. Using that rule of thumb is why I use the Cowboy #4.
I have never had any leading in any of the 1911's I shoot it in.
I never understood why they show the 18bhn for the 45 ACP.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I never understood why they show the 18bhn for the 45 ACP.

Because not matter how much evidence there is there are those reloaders who are convinced they require a super hard bullet to prevent leading. If that's what they want that's what I would sell them or lose business. Of course when they get leading you might lose business anyway but you still have to provide what the customer wants.

 

[Sam1911]

I imagine Brad and Joanne don't want to have to keep 10 different alloys on hand, and make 50 different bullets in each of those hardneses. So they offer a couple alloys and try to match common usage to the type of bullet and hardness.

Personally, I think 12 BN would not produce leading in most .45 ACP guns at the load level that almost all of us would use those for. BUT, some folks will want to drive them harder and/or use a higher pressure load, so they're offered in the upper-range hardness for the benefit of those folks.

And, fortunately, it turns out that the hard bullets don't produce leading for most of us either, so there's no loss in offering them that way. It isn't necessary for most of us, but doesn't hurt us, and might help a few. So that's a net positive.

 

[Louca]

Becaduse not matter how much evidence there is there are those reloaders who are convinced they require a super hard bullet to prevent leading.

Well, MBC mentions,

"... the large manufacturers, for ease of production, use a standard alloy for all of their cast bullet construction, an alloy which has a Brinell Hardness Number of approximately 24."

Wow, 24?! I think they are right when they say, "This explains why neither their packaging nor product information will ever refer to the BHN of their products."

Lou

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Oregon Trails uses an alloy that produces cast bullets of 22 to 24 BHN. I would consider them too hard for most loading but then again, those are so hard they act like jacketed bullets and most times won't lead at any pressures.

 

[oldpapps]

So many listings in respected loading sources...

OK, here is my not respected data (I just don't trust nameless internet sources, why should you?)

I have been loading with 231 ever scene they stopped making 230 in the 70s.

With 200 grains lead SWC, seated with the forward drive band even with the case mouth, standard large pistol primers (mostly CCIs) in any and all .45 ACP brass and a charge of 5.6 grains. This works for me, but use all of the proper safety steps and approach slowly.

What I get (chronograph set at 10 feet): 902.7 FPS Why would I include that point 7? This is an ongoing average of test shots over my chronograph, the current count is 48 (that's not many, think about it). I feel this is not a true number as I have included testing with several pistols, all 1911A1s with 5 inch barrels but several of them.

I did a comparison of the same loads out of 3 1911A1s, a 1917 S&W 5 1/2 inch revolver and a Marlin CampGun with a 16 1/2 inch barrel. These include a variation in the bullets, all ran a consistence 204 grains.

Weapon #1 - 867.2 FPS
Weapon #2 - 894.5 FPS
Weapon #3 - 869.0 FPS
1917 S&W - 879.6 FPS
Marlin Camp - 1045.5 FPS

I find these interesting but useless. Each weapon, component combination, weather and chronograph all combine to provided a mix of results.

To your question. Go to a known, respected loading source, pick a 'starting' load and work up until you and your weapon are happy.

Please be safe.

 

[Jim Watson]

I amazed myself looking in the chronograph log. I think of myself as a 231 burner, but I have really shot most .45 Major with other powders.

But it looks like 5.4 grains would be a place to start.
That 200 gr tube magazine bullet seats pretty deep and will generate higher pressure and velocity than the usual SWC.

But you won't really know until you get on a chronograph.
Maybe you and some of your friends could pool funds for one. I like the CE Digital Pro, frequently on sale for less than $100.

 

[Sam1911]

I would consider them too hard for most loading but then again, those are so hard they act like jacketed bullets and most times won't lead at any pressures.

Right, but if by chance your bore is a hair oversized, having a very hard bullet will cause leading due to gas cutting because the bullet isn't sealing the bore.

 

[243winxb]

Older Loading data Link -

Have a look here. 200 gr. Lead 231 4.8 800 14,900psi 5.5 910 19,600psihttp ://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/winchester.html