New AR/ AR10 purchase options

[otrman]

Just built a AR10 with Aero Precision upper,lower and handguard. Used a ultra match 20" barrel from Rainer Arms. Have only shot it with iron sights, still deciding on optic, but couldn't be happier so far.

 

[ar-newbie]

Just built a AR10 with Aero Precision upper,lower and handguard. Used a ultra match 20" barrel from Rainer Arms. Have only shot it with iron sights, still deciding on optic, but couldn't be happier so far.

I have also heard good things about aero precision for the LR308 platform.

 

[Sebastian]

PSA
Aero
DPMS

These are the first three that initially spring into my mind. Of course there are many others and you can spend lots! Be aware of the different generations of the rifle you want to potentially purchase and the basic pattern (DPMS vs Armalite) of the rifle as well. Consider the proprietary nature of parts. Take the time to research before making any purchase...use your google-fu to read any reviews and highs/lows. This is not an AR-15. Understand the pattern differences between an AR-10 and an AR308. Verify parts play well with each other before a purchase.

Separate the good info from the bullcrap...of which you will find lots of both.

I really think the PA-10 is hard to beat in terms of value. I did fiddle with mine but that was an inevitability regardless. Getting into the platform initially so economically and then upgrading the FCG/gas system/etc down the road seemed like the way to go...it just made sense.

Happy hunting.

 

[silicosys4]

I spent $630 on a pa10 last month after much research because I didn't want to spent $1500 + buying or building one that would end up needing to have the same issues addressed and with no measurably better component quality than the pa10 had when I got it.

So far I have not seen and nobody has given me a good reason to spend 2x-5x the price of a pa10 on any of its competitors. There are issues with the PA10, but they are for the most part all commonly known, easily fixed, and inexpensive to address.

The most commonly reported issues for the PA10 are

Overgassing symptoms like heavy recoil and extraction issues
Assembly issues including mismatched parts combos, mostly buffer tube/buffer combos that would not work
and, much less commonly,
mediocre accuracy

Overgassing is easy. I have come to the conclusion that most AR 308 rifles are overgassed. Its a port size issue, and PSA is not outside the range of port sizes encountered from various barrel and firearm manufacturers...in fact, at 0.089, the port on my rifle length 20" barrel PA10 is at the lower end. DPMS lists their port size at 0.093 for that configuration.

Where PSA falls short here is their buffer/spring/buffer tube combo. They have changed it several times and had some issues with standardization, but for their sliding stock models they seem to have settled on a proprietary rifle length buffer tube that fits a 3.25" carbine buffer and AR10 spring. Don't like that? Change it to a carbine length buffer tube of your choice, get a 2.5" heavy buffer and spring. I prefer the 3.25" buffer myself for the myriad of options.
Where PSA has dropped the ball is their buffer. It's an H buffer and it needs to be at least an H3 buffer. Mine is in the mail.

The other issue that I had to address was the depth of the buffer tube. As it was from the factory, the buffer tube was too deep as assembled and would have allowed the BCG to contact the receiver at full recoil. This was fixed by dropping two quarters down the buffer tube under the spring and buffer. Voila, plenty of clearance and the BCG still has enough travel to extend at least 3/16" behind the bolt hold open.

Switching to an H3 buffer and a Tubb flatwire spring is a very popular mod for the PA10, and one I'm doing to mine. My spring and buffer are in the mail as we speak. This does two things. The extra mass of the buffer and the extra spring pressure at lockup helps the bolt stay locked up for longer while firing, which allows chamber pressures to drop before the bolt unlocks. This helps solve any extraction issues, drops bolt velocity which tames recoil, and mitigates some of the effects of overgassing. For $60, its a pretty cheap fix. If that doesn't work, my next option is to go with an adjustable gas block for $90

Lets say I have mediocre accuracy and I can't tailor an acceptable load. I buy a new barrel for $300-$400, sell the old one for $150 to someone who just wants a blaster DPMS pattern barrel, and I'm still under $1100 I doubt this will be the case, though. People are reporting surprisingly good accuracy. If I get under 1.5moa I will be happy, and many are reporting sub moa accuracy, so I don't have any reason to think I won't be happy.

So yea, if anybody has a good argument as to why I should have spent $1500 to build or to buy an AR 308 so I wouldn't have to spend $700 to build a PA10, I'd love to hear it.

Edit: out of curiosity I went to Aero's website and started pricing out a comparable build. For $630 I got a complete upper, a stripped lower, an LPK, and a handguard.
No barrel.
No gas block.
No gas tube.
No muzzle device.
No BCG.
No charging handle.
No buffer tube, spring, buffer, stock, or hardware.

I don’t look at PSA anymore because they are always out of stock on what seems like well over 50% of the items they supposedly carry.

In fact I believe they should change the company name to, “Temporarily Out Of Stock.

Funny, Aero precision not only doesn't have half the parts needed to complete a build in stock at the time I'm writing this, They don't even have complete rifles in stock. Hmm...

OK... so they'r the wally world of ar's, starting to make sense. Its the whole "I cant justify spending more money somewhere else. " Now I am starting to understand the PSA thing.
So anybody try any other makers?

Oh please. Lets not pretend that deflating your wallet unnecessarily is anything other than that. if you've got personal preferences for features that require extra expenditure to fulfill, sure, but spending more money somewhere else just so you can say you spent more money somewhere else is financially unsound.

So lets hear you justify spending more money somewhere else. Seriously, price me out an AR 308 with a 20" bull barrel, 15" FF mlok handguard, polished trigger, and magpul ACS-L stock from other makers. Show me why Ignoring PSA when building an AR 308 is the right thing to do.

 

[cdb1]

Funny, Aero precision not only doesn't have half the parts needed to complete a build in stock at the time I'm writing this, They don't even have complete rifles in stock. Hmm...

Can’t speak to Aero, just PSA.

 

[earlthegoat2]

The last gun show I went to had OK deals on 308 ARs. I remember seeing an Armalite with 20” barrel for 900. DPMS with 16” barrel and collapsible stock for 700. On one of my local classified ad listings there was one for 500 and it sat for a few weeks. Can’t remember the make on that one but how could it have been that bad? The seller had decent feedback.

 

[Choctaw]

Nope ... <making sign of cross with fingers> ... not a chance ... no way ... you are not going to trick me into telling you that I have most recently been looking over the offerings of Palmetto State Armory.

My agency’s armorer built a PSA AR pistol for me. I did purchase the upgraded parts package but he said it is built like a tank. Our firearms instructors were equally impressed. I have no problems with PSA.

 

[1948CJ2A]

I purchased and AR-10 lower and upper from PSA a couple of years back. I put a Vortex Strikefire II on it and called it a day. No issues with it and the quality is certainly a non-issue for me.

If I were going to buy another AR-10 in addition to what I already have, I would probably go this route: https://www.brownells.com/firearms/...ro-rifle-308-7-62-20in-barrel-prod115389.aspx

 

[mavracer]

I've got one built on PSA upper/lower and one on AERO with mostly bargain components except for ones barrel and both triggers. They both run fine and shoot great. But since it sounds like you want to spend more money than is necessary you should look at Christiansen Arms

 

[mshootnit]

What do you think about this one?
POF rifle:

 

[ROCK6]

What do you think about this one?
POF rifle:

I broke down and picked one up for Christmas when I got home for vacation. Love it. Incredible for the size, extremely accurate, ambi-features, excellent fit and finish. While the brake works as advertised, it's pretty big; may change it out and try something else when I get home in May.

I also bought spare parts (which at least POF has no issues keeping in stock). Not too many proprietary parts as many are compatible with regular AR15's. Great gun if you can stomach the price...but most top tier rifles will run similar. I was about to go with a regular (whatever that means anymore) AR10, but the size efficiency of the POF Revolution won me over. Did I mention it shoots almost as soft as an AR15 and is far more accurate than I am; oh, and basic weight was 7.5 pounds.

ROCK6

 

[mshootnit]

Nice! It looks almost HK-ish. I also stumbled across this one, which admittedly would be heavier:
Noreen BN308

https://onlylongrange.com/bn308-308/

Only thing I don't like is no dustcover. But it is a side charger

 

[bfoosh006]

@silicosys4

"they seem to have settled on a proprietary rifle length buffer tube" ... FWIW, the longer buffer tube is a "Vltor length" and / or a Armalite pattern 308 carbine length.
And I am a PSA fan. Their price allowed me to enter into the Large Frame AR market.
With a little tinkering on my part, I am VERY happy.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/industr...-again-UPDATED-with-Tn-G-results-/301-285762/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/industr...-again-UPDATED-with-Tn-G-results-/301-285762/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/industr...terion-barrel-results-10-Sept-17-/301-284190/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/industr...pared-to-1-year-old-PA10-Gen-II-s/301-288436/

 

[jeff-10]

I was looking at the Ruger SR 762 (because it is a Ruger and its at the price point I want to pay) but it seems to have been discontinued which I find odd.

 

[ar-newbie]

@silicosys4

"they seem to have settled on a proprietary rifle length buffer tube" ... FWIW, the longer buffer tube is a "Vltor length" and / or a Armalite pattern 308 carbine length.
And I am a PSA fan. Their price allowed me to enter into the Large Frame AR market.
With a little tinkering on my part, I am VERY happy.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/industr...-again-UPDATED-with-Tn-G-results-/301-285762/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/industr...terion-barrel-results-10-Sept-17-/301-284190/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/industr...pared-to-1-year-old-PA10-Gen-II-s/301-288436/

You might want to check this thread out in regards to buffer tubes
https://forum.308ar.com/topic/16471-the-problems-with-the-pa-10-carbine-recoil-system/

 

[ar-newbie]

Suffice to say, The PA10 is a decent rifle, but there has been significantly different experiences for owners, based on variable parts and dimensions since the release of the Gen 2, gas tube length continues to be an issue as well

 

[IndianaBoy]

Do you need the added energy capabilities that you would get from the option of an AR-10?

There are definitely valid reasons to go with a 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor, but there are downsides as well. Cost and weight being primary downsides.

I have used several PSA barrels and bolt carriers and they have exceeded my expectations. I rarely buy complete rifles because I have preferences for triggers, handguards and stocks, and nobody offers a complete rifle exactly to my liking.

If you want a step up from the PSA, the Larue Tactical Ultimate Upper kits are a fantastic value.
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit/

Under $800 for a premium AR and all you need to add is a lower of your choosing.

 

[IndianaBoy]

I used a Larue Stealth barrel for a precision build recently and it has shown fantastic potential.

I like to let the purpose for which I need a rifle dictate the configuration.

 

[mshootnit]

Do you need the added energy capabilities that you would get from the option of an AR-10?

There are definitely valid reasons to go with a 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor, but there are downsides as well. Cost and weight being primary downsides.

I have used several PSA barrels and bolt carriers and they have exceeded my expectations. I rarely buy complete rifles because I have preferences for triggers, handguards and stocks, and nobody offers a complete rifle exactly to my liking.

If you want a step up from the PSA, the Larue Tactical Ultimate Upper kits are a fantastic value.
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit/

Under $800 for a premium AR and all you need to add is a lower of your choosing.
View attachment 827969

Thanks for that info

 

[Armorer 101]

I decided to build myself another 260. I have been shooting the 260 since two years before it was a 260, my first was a 6.5x08 and my loads were developed for it. I owned five 260 at one time, now just two. My old 260 Armalite AR-10T green gun was very accurate but very heavy, so I got rid of it. Went looking for a new lighter Armalite upper and lower receiver with parts. What I found was a pile of DPMS style pieces and parts by all manner of names, claiming to be AR-10s, but no Armalite parts by anyone. Then I came across a heavy, thick, reinforced set with a 45 degree angled rear upper and low and behold, a real Armalite set, now I start building. Do not be fooled, if your upper is rounded at the rear it is a DPMS style not an Armalite AR-10 and they are different, take different mags, different barrel nuts, different bolts, etc.

When I get it built I will post pictures, barrel is being made at this time.

You might want to browse through this data: https://308ar.com/ar-10-308-ar-compatibility-reference-guide/

Ed

 

[silicosys4]

Suffice to say, The PA10 is a decent rifle, but there has been significantly different experiences for owners, based on variable parts and dimensions since the release of the Gen 2, gas tube length continues to be an issue as well

It certainly did have its share of teething issues when it was first introduced, and there were some nonfunctioning rifles sent out with the wrong buffer/buffer tube combos, but from what I'm seeing the PA10's that PSA is sending out these days are gtg, functioning rifles. They benefit from some tuning, but so do most of the other options out there. The problem with the bolt contacting the receiver is an issue but as I haven't found any instances where its done any damage other than cosmetic in a place you don't see most of the time, and it's an easy fix. I've only seen one person complaining about gas tube length,

https://forum.308ar.com/topic/11808-a-word-to-the-wise-about-the-palmetto-state-armory-pa-10/

and that gas tube was not a PSA item

"Got the mid-length gas tube from a local black rifle shop and had a slight problem."

It was not assembled by PSA, and it was not sent out that way by PSA...it was part of a parts bin build..... my rifle is fine. IMO, people buying random parts from random black rifle shops don't really have a leg to stand on trying to call out PSA for fitment issues. There is a disclaimer right on the website, for crying out loud, PSA does not guarantee proper fitment with anything except PSA parts.

For the life of me I don't know why they don't ship the PA10's with the same adjustable gas block that i'm seeing the PA65's ship with. That right there would fix most of the issues I'm seeing. Oh well, if I need one I'll get one. I'll have to see how the H3 buffer and Tubb spring works first.

Edit: That POF is an interesting beast, but it has a 16" barrel. Not a fan of 16" barrels on .308's. The shortened/redesigned receiver is pretty neat, but its utility is pretty dependent on keeping the barrel length short, and even then, at 7.5lbs without optics, it is more in line with a lightweight .308 AR build rather than a 5.56 build. My heaviest AR15 build is a pig with billet receivers, standard bcg, M4 barrel profile, H2 buffer, heavy rail, heavy vltor stock, beefy Warne mount, and a 1-4 scope, and it weighs complete under 7.5lbs.

 

[ar-newbie]

It certainly did have its share of teething issues when it was first introduced, and there were some nonfunctioning rifles sent out with the wrong buffer/buffer tube combos, but from what I'm seeing the PA10's that PSA is sending out these days are gtg, functioning rifles. They benefit from some tuning, but so do most of the other options out there. The problem with the bolt contacting the receiver is an issue but as I haven't found any instances where its done any damage other than cosmetic in a place you don't see most of the time, and it's an easy fix. I've only seen one person complaining about gas tube length,

My Rifle built from all PSA parts, upper shipped complete, short gas tube, several other users with complete rifle or upper also had short gas tubes,and numerous recoil / buffer issues, too many to count. I had to reach out to Palmetto to correct the buffer / recoil issues with parts swaps, and will be changing the gas tube out at some point myself to known good working part. Things have improved somewhat since I put mine together, ie now they sell lower PA10 build kits which is something they did NOT do before, and didn't have the proper buffer anywhere on their site at the time. If you are selling PA10 stripped uppers and lowers, you would think they would at least stock the proprietary parts.........

 

[silicosys4]

My Rifle built from all PSA parts, upper shipped complete, short gas tube, several other users with complete rifle or upper also had short gas tubes,and numerous recoil / buffer issues, too many to count. I had to reach out to Palmetto to correct the buffer / recoil issues with parts swaps, and will be changing the gas tube out at some point myself to known good working part. Things have improved somewhat since I put mine together, ie now they sell lower PA10 build kits which is something they did NOT do before, and didn't have the proper buffer anywhere on their site at the time. If you are selling PA10 stripped uppers and lowers, you would think they would at least stock the proprietary parts.........

Huh...thats interesting what you are saying about the gas tubes being a known issue that you encountered, because you don't mention it here:

.

It is fully built now, learned a lot along the way....

1. the current PA10 upgrade kits seem to be exactly correct and work fine. Safety works great, takedown pins work well and fit well, bolt latch works properly with no adjustments needed.
2. shell extractor on bolt carrier group was locked up tight as a drum out of the box. I had to take it all apart and get cosmoline out, and free up the O rings, as they were jammed so tight they were stuck in the upright position and would not move at all. After freeing them up and putting silicone grease on them and the spring, it now works very well.
3. the dust cover spring had an extremely long end which was sticking up 1/2 inch from the edge of the ejection port of the reciever, which was causing deflection of the spent casings when ejected. I had to grind the spring end down flush to stop that.
4. The receiver extension had a lot of burrs and stuff sticking up on the back side of the lugs which the bolt locks into, causing it to have difficulty achieving full lock up. This caused me a lot of frustration, and I had to get in there with a tiny file to get rid of the burs so it would lock up properly every time. This took a lot of time, as I didn't want to mess anything up while doing it. with some perseverance I was able to get them out without causing any damage to the extension and locking lugs.
5. There was cosmoline everywhere, I had to use kerosene to soften it up and get all of it out.

After all that, it now passes all function checks perfectly short of live fire, which will happen in the next few weeks hopefully. I have some supplies to make up ammo for it, but there are some issues with my brass supply I need to sort out. I will most likely pick up a box or 2 of factory ammunition for the initial break in, and move on to reloads after that. Pics to come.

or here:

I ended up getting in contact with them, and they sent the correct buffer. The new buffer was installed, and finally I got it out to test fire this past weekend, and it worked perfectly.

From this thread you started

https://thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/palmetto-state-armory-ar-10-platform.832894/page-2

Now, that was a pretty good breakdown of some of the issues you had, most of which, lets face it, were very minor and expected when assembling a rifle from parts. I'll grant the spring must have been annoying and they should have caught it, and yes, they should work hard to keep their proprietary lower build parts in stock. PSA came through on the buffer, good for them, but 3.25" and 2.5" heavy buffers are not hard to find elsewhere.

But nowhere do you mention specific problems with the gas tube that led to malfunctions. You seemed to be pretty darn happy with it, actually, even a month later further down in the thread.

Why do you think PSA assembled the rifle with an improper length gas tube? Your statements are contradictory to that effect. Either the rifles are overgassed, which I've heard a lot of, or the rifles have too short a gas tube, leading to short stroking, which I haven't heard a single instance of from a PSA rifle. I'm not attacking you here, I'm finding these 308 AR rifles can be fairly complicated and easy to misdiagnose and It's hard to wade through sometimes conflicting info. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of it.


By the way, I want to thank you for your information, I actually referenced it while researching before my purchase, and afterwards while I was going through it, making sure I didn't have any of the issues you've reported, which I haven't for the most part.

 

[ar-newbie]

Your defending PSA by claiming nobody is having problems, other than people who don't know what they are doing. That's flat out wrong. The PA10 can be a good running gun, but it usually does not come out of the box like that. Mine does run good now, but is still not 100% where it should be. It functions ok, and shoots very accurately, but I know the gas tube is short, and the buffer is still a bit on the light side. When I do correct those two issues it will run like a GOOD LR308 DPMS rifle should. There really is no excuse for PSA to have stumbled on these issues for about 2 years now, when they have been made aware of it repeatedly with the same results over and over again.

I am not trying to mislead anyone, but I find it disconcerting that PSA does so well on the ar15 stuff, and stumbles so badly on the PA10. They are so close, but oh so far from having a 100% solid rifle like much of their other products. There are several posters so far on the 308 forum echoing these exact same concerns and problems, with completed rifles, separate complete uppers and lowers, and those like me who had to wade through the mess that was buying and assembling the parts last year in spring of 2018. If people don't make them aware of the problem, and share the information others will end up facing the same problems over and over again.

Some of these issues I did not become completely aware of until well after my last post on this forum about the PA10. Would I buy it again? absolutely, but that doesn't change the facts with PSA and the PA10 having serious issues still left as is for 2 years running now. I suggest you read the threads on the 308 forum again, and see all the specifics laid out in regards to it. I am not the expert on it, but 98Z5V over there seems to have everything laid out correctly.

 

[PCFlorida]

I've put together two AR-10's, they are total mixmasters, receivers (upper and lower match), parts kits came from one vendor, barrel from another, stocks and forends from another and so on. Got the last bolt on a heck of a good price from Brownells. Short story long, they both run great, no complaints. I think the 2nd one had a PSA upper and lower, but again, no complaints.