Quantcast

New Study: From 2000 to 2018, No shootings at schools that allow teachers and staff to carry guns

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by LiveLife, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Here's a new study done by Crime Prevention Research Center on school shootings and armed teachers from 2000 to 2018 - https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/deliver...8071127064094097015009030073031020029&EXT=pdf

    Spread the word and pressure your law makers with this new study data.

    "Schools that Allow Teachers to Carry Guns are Extremely Safe: Data on the Rate of Shootings and Accidents in Schools that allow Teachers to Carry

    ... if attackers don't know who is carrying a concealed firearm, they won’t know whom they need to attack first.

    ... There hasn’t been a single mass public shooting in any school that allows teachers and staff to carry guns legally. Since at least as far back as January 2000, not a single shooting-related death or injury has occurred during or anywhere near class hours on the property of a school that allows teachers to carry."
     
  2. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,120
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Holy Cow, a change in firearms practices that makes sense and works ... ! :what:

    OK, Now I'm going to look for unicorns ...
     
  3. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,694
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Wisconsin DOESN'T allow teachers to carry weapons and I don't believe we have had any either. What does this or that prove.
    I think we have to be careful drawing conclusions where there aren't. We complain when the other side does the same thing.
     
    WrongHanded, Fiv3r, bearcreek and 6 others like this.
  4. Kendahl

    Kendahl Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    337
    How many schools allow teachers and staff to carry? I suspect it's very few. In that case, there aren't a statistically significant number of examples. More likely, this just proves that school shootings, as bad as they are when they occur, are actually very rare.

    The most encouraging data are that allowing teachers and staff to carry doesn't lead to shootings whether accidental or deliberate. This should be no surprise since it's typical of gun owners especially the ones who go to the trouble of qualifying for concealed carry permits.
     
    psyopspec, Hasaf and Bfh_auto like this.
  5. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,831
    A closer eye on the schools that allow armed staff (outside of school resource officers/LEOS) would be the number of times firearms used inappropriately. ND/AD, threatening a student, leaving it in a bathroom etc. The "what if" against armed teachers has always been how the teacher might use a weapon negatively as a means to prevent wide adoption. If that doesn't happen often enough, the argument loses its bite.
     
    Bfh_auto likes this.
  6. roscoe

    roscoe Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,601
    Location:
    NV
    Given the rarity of school shootings, and the relatively low number of teachers carrying, I doubt the sample size is large enough to make a statistically significant assessment. Of course, having more teachers carry might help the sample size.
     
    Styx and Hasaf like this.
  7. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,170
    Location:
    TX
    That's probably the case. Parkland had armed presence and look what happened. The idea that a zone with guns stops shootings is belied by the folks who specifically go to courts and police stations and open fire. Plenty of gun allowing locales have shootings. The El Paso Walmart didn't ban concealed carry.

    I'd be careful about such 'studies'.

    That being said, I totally support allowing teachers to carry. I personally went to testify for campus carry in TX. I got interviewed on TV for the major TX stations and mentioned in the major papers. However, deterrence is a minor factor in the case of a motivated aggressor. The more powerful reason is to stop the incident as soon as possible.

    Also, if you want to carry in school, I opine that you are morally bound to train up to a high standard. No just shooting the J frame once a year at the square range.
     
    psyopspec, Bfh_auto, ATLDave and 3 others like this.
  8. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    12,450
    Location:
    Georgia
    Not enough data to mean anything. The number of schools who allow teachers to carry is insignificant. The number of schools that have had school shootings is insignificant. There is no way any correlation could possibly be made.
     
    Hasaf and Bfh_auto like this.
  9. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    From the new study, out of 20 states, from 2000 to 2018, there was one accidental discharge. - https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/deliver...8071127064094097015009030073031020029&EXT=pdf

    "Allowing teachers and staff to carry concealed handguns is nothing new in the United States, and hasn't created any problems. Before the early 1990s, there were no state laws specifically restricting concealed carry on K-12 property so that teacher carry may have been common for much of our history. School insurance rates are no higher for schools that allow teachers to carry.

    ... Twenty states currently allow at least some teachers and staff to carry, although the rules vary.

    ... During hours between 6 AM and midnight, there were two suicides attempt in schools that allow teachers to carry, and both were in Utah, one of these was successful. Beyond that, there has been one accidental discharge and one attempted suicide, both in Utah and both had no one harmed.
    • On July 21, 2017, at about 2:30 AM, a 19-year-old man shot an 18-year-old man in the parking lot of Spanish Fork High School in Utah."
     
  10. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    While we agree with many things, I vehemently disagree with this statement and agree that perhaps armed teachers may be a better option than coward LEO presence.

    < Rant ON >

    Parkland DID NOT have an EFFECTIVE armed presence as "coward" Peterson FAILED TO RESPOND to the shooter and DID NOTHING to protect the lives of the victims contrary to his training (He was trained to respond to active shooter to “immediately go to confront the shooter” and “move directly and quickly towards known threat ... Sad, sad, sad) - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/us/scot-peterson-video-footage-parkland-shooting.html

    His failure and refusal to do his job make my blood boil (As an ex-Army Medic trained to move towards gunfire to tend to wounded, I can only hope that he is hounded by images of bleeding bodies and cries for help from dying students for the rest of his life :fire::cuss:).

    Had there been a brave armed teacher(s) who cared about the students (even just their lives), lives could have been saved.

    "Mr. Peterson, who was the only armed guard on campus, was charged on Tuesday with seven counts of felony neglect of a child for not doing more to protect students. He was also charged with culpable negligence and perjury.”

    < Rant OFF >
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    theotherwaldo and Bfh_auto like this.
  11. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,170
    Location:
    TX
    You miss the point of claiming armed personnel act as deterrent as a major factor. Get it?

    That the officer failed wasn’t the point of my comment.
     
    psyopspec, Duster340 and LiveLife like this.
  12. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    I know, I know ... Things could have gone so differently had Peterson done his job ... *sigh*

    Absolutely.

    < I need a drink (Ice cold Coke Zero) after coward Peterson reminder and a moment of silence for the dead students and surviving families and classmates >
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    Duster340 and theotherwaldo like this.
  13. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Armed Teachers - Videos discuss pros and cons of arming teachers, Parkland shooting/Peterson's inaction, training, examples of teachers preventing shootings, facts of school shooting statistics, etc.



    Even reluctant teachers admit "safety of our children is number one priority" and arming teachers is "hopefully" a step in the right direction. When asked if they felt "safer" with armed staff, they all answered, "I do. Yes, I do."

     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  14. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  15. caribou

    caribou Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,035
    Location:
    North West Alaska
    Hunters safety, Gun Safety, Trap/Skeet ,Biathlon, Small bore target, etc were taught in classes in and out of school when I was in. Nomass shootings in them, but then again, there never is when firearms are used properly and kids were taught both proper use and the responsibility that came with using them.
     
  16. RETG

    RETG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    472
    Location:
    Somewhere in Idaho But on the move; AGAIN!
    What makes TX so great on gun carry, including teachers in school.
    If I'm not mistaken, it's a fairly new law and the teachers need approval of the local school board. While UT has allowed teachers to carry for a long time and no permission is needed, just a state issued permit.

    As for the study, need more info to make it a solid study. Would like to believe that teachers in school stop shootings, but this does not prove that....at least to me.
     
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  17. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,831
    Which is a good thing. I have my own reservations about allowing teachers to carry. But the old axiom "if it is stupid but works, it isn't stupid." There was an AD shooting here in AL last year by an unauthorized substitute teacher that got lots of media coverage. The good publicity about armed teachers is what we need. Which is why I am interested in long term case studies.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-alabama-school-shooting-20180307-story.html
     
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  18. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    And 18 years is a good basis to build our argument for teachers to exercise their gun rights/2A to defend themselves and students' lives. The fact that no school shooting took place where teachers were allowed to carry guns is another compelling argument that arming teachers work.

    IMO, as indicated by the new long-term study, arming teachers may be the most effective "Do something" to combat school shootings.

    Once Trump gets re-elected in 2020 with more pro gun/2A federal judges and SCOTUS justices appointed, I anticipate arming of teachers to expand to all 50 states and US territories could become a reality to stop school shootings.
     
    theotherwaldo likes this.
  19. Lucky Derby

    Lucky Derby Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    2,388
    Location:
    Colorado Rockies
    This study, while low on available data, appears encouraging.
    After the horrible events of 9/11/01, one proactive step taken was to allow some commercial pilots to be armed. While not exactly the same, I believe it is similar enough that a study on that situation would be relevent.
     
    theotherwaldo and LiveLife like this.
  20. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Messages:
    2,423
    I want to jump on this bandwagon. But, like so many others said, the lack of statistics is as bad as what 2A opponents use. Keep to the high road.
     
    Duster340 likes this.
  21. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    6,494
    Location:
    "Land of (dis)Enchantment"
    School shootings are pretty rare to begin with. They get hyped in the name of more gun control.
     
    Double Naught Spy likes this.
  22. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,170
    Location:
    TX
    Some pro gun 'researchers' overemphasize suspect correlations for the cause. Of course, anti folks do the same. A well known pro gun scholar was presented a paper that mandatory gun locks increased rape as a state or two that passed such had an increase. I was talking to Don Kates, a now passed great gun advocate, and said to him that's BS. There was no attempt to actually see if the rapes occurred in incidents where there were gun locks. Most rapes are acquaintances or date rapes - nothing to do with running for the locked gun and not making it in time. Don agreed and we just sighed about such.

    One problem with the econometric regression approach is that they don't get down to the actual incidents to see what happened. On the other side, an increase in CCW and an increase in crimes was found in some states. OH MY - question - where the crimes committed by folks with permits? Oops, not looked at, just some numbers and then an implied causality - which you can't show by simple regression.

    Politically and ideologically oriented research is a bane in the gun debate.
     
    FlSwampRat, ford8nr and LiveLife like this.
  23. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    8,691
    Location:
    Kingsport Tennessee
    For awhile locally when the newspaper reported criminal or reckless use of handguns, they would report the handgun carry permit HCP status of the arrestee. They were always illegally carrying without a HCP so the paper stopped reporting the non-HCP status of bad or stupid guys with handguns.

    The anti-gunners take the stance that econometeric regression by John Lott showing a decrease in crime as jurisdictions adopt right-to-carry does not prove more (legal) guns, less crime. Often the anti-gunners quote Ted Gortzel's skepticism about proving causation through econometric regression AND then turn around and claim that econometric regression by John Donohue showing an increase in assualt after r-t-c proves the opposite.

    Lott's and Donohue's regression include dozens of weighted control factors believed to affect crime rates: police per population, average income, population density, etc. They are not simply crime rate before and after law was passed. There are problems with weighting in the equations: for example, number of police per 1,000 residents does not measure the quality of policing, although if the number of police is much less than 3 per 1,000 crime tends to be higher.
     
  24. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    20,038
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    And how does that affect school shootings and arming of teachers?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  25. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    8,691
    Location:
    Kingsport Tennessee
    The study showing no shootings at schools with armed teachers is from the Crime Prevention Research Center which was founded by John Lott.
    The analysis applied was similar to the analysis he used on right-to-carry for self-defense.


    (I accept John Lott's narrative that he was originally disinterested in guns until he asked an economics class at Wharton School of Business what subject they thought should next be subjected to economic analysis. A student suggested guns and gun control. Lott claims that he was genuinely surprised that his research upended everthing he previous accepted as common wisdom about guns and gun control. That experience turned him pro gun rights. That would put Lott and his co-author David Mustard in with Gary Kleck, James Wright, Peter Rossi as people who totally accepted the conventional gun control narrative until they did empirical research on the issue.)
     
    Lucky Derby likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice