New Thoughts on Home Defense & 12 Gauge...

[LaEscopeta]

I’ll repeat the advice I’ve heard from others, more informed and experienced then me:

1. Do everything you can to avoid a defense situation.

2. If and only if you fail at number 1 and are forced to use deadly force to defend yourself or others, use the weapon you have at hand that you know and can use best.

3. Consider a range of possible defense scenarios and work out rough plans for how you will handle each. Practice your responses and learn your capabilities and limits (also of you weapon.) Knowing these will help you improvise when (not if) you are in a defense situation where you did not think out every detail in advance. Don’t get hung up on defending one particular scenario; these are rare events and you can not calculate the odds of a particular scenario happening to you. If it is not a rare event for you (more then 0 to 1 time in a lifetime) you need to move.

In my own case, I was following the buck-in-the-tube-slugs-in-the-side-saddle method described above but discovered a flaw in the plan. I can’t consistently hit an 8.5” x 11” paper target past 25 yards (buckshot range) with slugs from my bead sighted shotgun. (I can however hit the homemade PVC pipe target stand at 100 yards and this is highly amusing to everyone at the range.) So assuming more practice does not fix this flaw, I’m looking at:

- Rifle or peep sights on the HD shotgun.
- Federal Flitecontrol rounds to extend buckshot range.
- A shotgun for inside and a rifle for outside.

 

[dstorm1911]

B-Roberts, slug used for breaching is point blank thats why it works so nice to punch out the deadbolt Reduced load are because of bystanders and collateral damage they only clock 800 fps plenty enough to stop a bad guy at 20 yards but still slow enough to be halted by a wall at 35-40 yards, Can't remember what brand OSP issued its been a tad few years, Thunder ranch was Federal LE stuff they are a hollow pointed rifled slug traveling at 800 FPS and yes a 1/2" of new plywood at 100 yards will bounce em a 9 mm much smaller bullet traveling at 1160 fps with a much lower drag coeficient will easily penetrate at 100 yards ya mighta missed the part in High school science about inertia but the less frontal surface area to transfer energy on contact the better the penetration will be, this is kinda the reason the Germans went to an 7.92 mm spitzer bullet rather than just trying to speed up the old 11.3 mm slug............ same reason a .45 with hollow points will seldom over penetrate while a 9 mm can, this is also why all of our fleet trucks in my company have recently been swapped out from the pretty Pete 379s to the newer areodynamic nosed trucks we run today the more frontal surface ya got the more resistance ya have to penetration.......... LAW enforcement does not use slugs for sniper duty the scatter gun is going to be used at ranges inside of 30 yards tops and at 30 yards a 1 oz chunk of lead moving at 800 fps will take ya right off your feet with no problem yet its not going to over penetrate endangering civilians in their homes........ kinda why cops aren't carrying 5.8 mms too................... ya gotta balance stopping the bad guy with the safty of the public..... so ya use a round thats effective for the ranges ya need it not many police officers huntin deer on their brake with the cruisers riot gun

 

[Correia]

Okay, I've shot a bunch of things with various slugs. There is some bad info in this thread.

Even the reduced recoil slugs will punch two things of drywall at 35 meters. Piece of cake. Then you get about a foot of penetration into the dirt behind it.

Breaching rounds are not traditional slugs, and they aren't used as slugs. They are usually made of some sort of compressed metal that fragments rapidly. You could shoot one at somebody as a slug, but you'll have horrible accuracy, as that is not what they are designed for. They are usually in contact with their target, with the muzzle held about an inch from the lock by some sort of stand off mechanism.

My breacher has a Tromix shark brake that you actually stab into the wood so it doesn't shift.

Don't confuse breaching rounds with slugs. They are two totally different things.

If you breach a door with a slug, even a reduced recoil slug, you're going to launch an ounce of lead through that house.

And a half inch of plywood stopping a slug at 100 meters? Do you actually try any of this stuff first, or do you just make up random factoids and post them on the internet?

Look, seriously, go throw down a sheet of plywood at 100 and shoot it with any slug. Don't take my word for it, or any other random dude off the internet.

 

[USMC Tanker]

Well said, sir!

 

[Sistema1927]

The first mistake was in your family member leading the BGs to your home. As soon as they knew that they were being followed they should have headed to the nearest Police Station (or Donut Shop ).

If you think that you are being followed you should take a few odd turns. If the tail is still there then head to a place of safety.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Thunder ranch was Federal LE stuff they are a hollow pointed rifled slug traveling at 800 FPS and yes a 1/2" of new plywood at 100 yards will bounce em a 9 mm much smaller bullet traveling at 1160 fps with a much lower drag coeficient will easily penetrate at 100 yards ya mighta missed the part in High school science about inertia but the less frontal surface area to transfer energy on contact the better the penetration will be

According to Federal, their reduced recoil LE hollow-point slug is 1oz and leaves the muzzle at 1300fps. At 100yds, it is travelling 900fps and has 805 ft/lbs of energy. This won't penetrate 1/2" of plywood?

 

[Correia]

Even the plywood is tougher in Texas...

 

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things.....

One of my homemade target stands had a sheet of plywood for a backing, reinforced by another when I wore holes in the first. No slug seemed to have trouble getting through at the time. And they weren't just lying on the berm either.

Even the old 7/8 oz Remington Forster style stuff could make it through both doors and the seat of a mid 50s Chevy pickup. They were the least penetrating 12 gauge slug I ever tried, but could make it almost through a MD whitetail broadside. Usually the slug was recovered inside the skin on the side opposite entry and flattened to a disc.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Learn how to aim off. Know your shotgun's pattern at different ranges with the loads you use. You can aim off to one side and let just half the pattern hit the BG while you miss any hostage.

Federal and others make 'tactical' buckshot that not only is less penitrative but holds together better for a tight close range pattern. It's OO buck at 1100 fps. That's what I use.

Know your shotgun very well and you will have no problems.

 

[Correia]

And I would implore our members to actually go shoot their shotguns, and not just believe crap that was made up on the internet. (see above posts where you can pretty much pluck a low recoil slug out of the air at 100)

Seriously, please.

 

[cameron.personal]

I must have got a bad batch of low recoil slugs.... mine will rip through a wall at 35yards no problem...


I BG has my beloved bent over the hood of a car!!!

Close the distance, BOOM! BG is missing most of his head!

 

[sacp81170a]

This thread brings to mind a question I've had for a while: what does buckshot do that a slug won't? I'm leaning more and more to simply loading up with slugs and forgetting about it. With a dedicated slug barrel, I've got accuraccy out past 100 yards, the wallop of a slug, and I don't have to worry as much about the extended trajectory (the biggest problem in a built up area).

 

[B.D. Turner]

I would not want to use a shotgun if one of my children were held at the mercy of some perp. This is a prime example of where a compact AR-15 with a red dot would be far better than any scattergun. I believe that the shotgun would be to great a liability in this situation.

 

[inherentical]

what does buckshot do that a slug won't?

I'd imagine that it spreads damage out over a greater area. Instead of punching a single big hole through your target in one specific place, you punch several smaller holes in hopes of hitting a vital area. The spread just helps increase your odds of hitting something vital, but you still need penetration to achieve such a hit.

 

[Clipper]

My shotgun would be the last thing I'd grab...If I'm wearing pants, I'm carrying a pistol, since I pocket carry, but if I picked something else up to deal with an unknown threat outside, it would definately be my Hi-Point carbine/red dot. There is no realistic scenario that I can think of that would cause me to reach for a shotgun when that carbine is available...

 

[strambo]

#1 get closer. #2 change angle (I'd feel safe enough to shoot him in the back if his body covered the family member...this is a very bad situation and the alternative is worse than the risk). #3, my drive is short...10 yards max. At 10 yds, my Hornady Low Recoil TAP 00 only has a 2.5" spread. #4 as said by others, select slug.

A carbine would be ideal...I just don't own one right now.

 

[fireflyfather]

From a defensive perspective, I think the semi-auto rifle can do anything the shotgun can do and then some with a faster follow up, less recoil, and with more precision.

Um, right. One shot, and up to 16 holes, no time for the BG to duck, twist, return fire, etc. True follow-up is faster, recoil is more punishing, and there is more precision, but a slug or full pattern hit with OO is more than likely going to put the target DOWN. Better first strike damage if you have to fire from surprise to protect a family member. Also about 1/5th the price of a good AR, and a *little* less forgiving in terms of accuracy for the non-shooter types with buckshot at household ranges (4" spread vs 1/4" hole...a factor of 16...).

They each have their place. Also, when it comes time to face a jury, if you get railroaded, an off-the rack 12 gauge is at least a little, and maybe a lot less likely to "scare" any antis on the jury than an EBR.



As for the slug penetration nonsense, the cheap winchester/walmart slugs will punch almost clean through a bowling pinl at 10 yards. Nice flat pancake effect, that was sticking half-way out of the other side of the bowling pin. I have NO doubt that it would penetrate the average exterior wall of houses/apartments most people live in. Bowling pins are made out of hardwood, with a tough as nails plastic coating (a .357 was BOUNCING OFF the bowling pin without penetrating the plastic).


And as for slugs not being accurate, or a carbine having a red-dot, um, you do know that you can put an optic rail on most shotguns. Put an eotech on top of that mossberg, or even a cheap BSA red-dot, and you have an instant 50-75 yard slug gun. I can get an otherwise off-the rack mossberg 500 with a cheap red dot to do at least 3" or better at 50 yards, and I suck. That's less than the distance between the outside edge of your eyeballs. At 35 yards? Assuming I had a 105 foot long driveway (unlikely), and my kid was stupid enough to park her car at the WRONG END of the driveway, and hadn't closed any distance to the house before the BG got to her and started waving the gun around, hadn't called me or the police, wasn't LAYING INTO THE HORN THE WHOLE WAY, didn't drive to a police station, (anyone else finding this situation completely 100% contrived?), then I suppose my group would be something more like 2.5" or 2", which means the idiot pointing a gun at my daughter and threatening to kill her would have a nice 0.72" air conditioning conduit to his brain case (unfortunate, but this is all hypothetical anyway, right?). Can I at least construe that my daughter is "bent over the hood", and the perp is standing mor or less straight? Hell, at that point, don't even need a slug. Just aim about 3" over his head (for margin of error, not because of pattern size) and let the buckshot do the rest. I mean seriously, from a tactical point of view, this whole situation is ridiculous. For hostage situations, you are MUCH more likely to encounter it at close range, and in the instant you are sizing up the situation, you find yourself in the classic "don't shoot or I kill her" situation, which is a whole different tactical situation.

 

[doubleg]

This is why you keep a loaded rifle next to your shotty.

 

[Teufelhunden]

I agree your most accurate piece is the best choice for a shot,
but it might be best to charge the @#!%* with a bayonet after
sneaking around closer.

While this tactic would certainly dissuade the goblin from his course of action and make a lasting (and parting) impression on his associates, one can only imagine the field day the scumbag attorney the goblin's family would hire would make of it. Shooting someone is bad enough, bayoneting them would surely elevate courtroom antics to a new level

-Teuf