New to reloading .223 Questions?? Help??

[folsoh]

I hope someone can answer my reloading questions. Thanks in advance!!!
I am new to reloading. I started loading .223 remington for my bolt action Mossberg MVP rifle as I figured .223 would be a great starting bullet to learn from. I am limited on how far I can seat the bullet because the rifle uses a magazine.

Currently I am using this load:
.223 brass is mostly Hornady with a few American eagle. All shot once in the rifle I am reloading for. It’s loaded with 55 grain Vmax bullets (#22271) using Federal match primers with Winchester 748 powder.

Case trim length 1.750 C.O.L. 2.235 Ogive 2.797 with Sinclair Comparator

Now that you know about my loads my questions are concerning how to work up a load and what is safe. I have two reloading books. They both have different data.

Lyman says 55 grain bullet with W748 powder you can go 25.0 to 27.8 grains.
Hornady says 55 grain bullet with W748 powder you can go 22.7 to 26.4 grains.

I started off with 23.5, 24.0 24.5,25.5 grains of powder to test. None notably outperformed the others. I then loaded 25.5, 26.0 and 26.5 grains to test next. The 26.5 grouped the best. My chrono speed was High 3099, Low 3042 with Average of 3051 out of 20 rounds I tested. My best group was .58 inch. My chrono reads plain hornady factory 55 grain bullets at an average of 3056. So I am just below the average speed of my factory ammo.

A friend of mine who reloads a lot and has been doing it for 25 years suggested that I load some 26.5, 27.0 and 27.5 grains to continue to ladder test. Then if 26.5 was still the best to test a couple rounds with a 26.3, 26.4 and 26.6, 26.7 grains just to see if the group tightens anymore.

My question is???? Is this safe as the Hornady manual says to stop at 26.4. My brass looks perfect. I have no over pressure signs. Why are the manuals so different?? I couldn’t see Lyman printing anything that would push you into dangerous levels but is this common to be different from load to load in difference manuals? As Lyman says I can go to 27.8 grains and still be safe. Thanks for any input.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The difference in load data are caused by many factors including test equipment, temperature, barometric pressure, powder lot number and more.

If you are using the same bullet seating depth as the Hornady manual and the same bullet it will be safe to go to the max powder charge. Of course keep an eye on pressure signs although usually by the time pressings appear the pressures are really high. I mention seating depth or OAL because that will also change pressures and can account for the different data in your manuals.

 

[fireman 9731]

If I was routinely shooting .58 inch groups with 26.5 grains, I wouldn't waste my time with several other loads trying to get much better. I know some people may want better, but thats plenty good enough for me.

 

[Kaldor]

I dont have my Hornady or Lyman books in front of me right now, but Hodgdon says stop at 26.3. Both theirs and Hornadys data is always pretty lawyered down. Lymans data is usually pretty warm as you are seeing when you compare it.

Could you load a little hotter? Sure, why not. Would I? Nope. If you are getting groups at .58" Id call it a day. At that point, the reload is not what is limiting you, but more likely the rifle is.

What I would do to really test the accuracy of your load, is load 20, shoot 2 groups of 10 at 100 yards. This will give you a better idea of accuracy. If you are still grouping under an inch with 10 shots Id call it a win. If not, Id start loading up and down from 26.5 gr a 1/10th of a grain at a time. Obviously all up to you, but I chased my 223 load a long time, fired over 300 rounds of test ammo, before I found what I liked.

The one thing I would consider is changing powders. W748 is not exactly known for its temp stability which will lead to poor accuracy. If you are chasing accuracy, something like IMR 8208 XBR might be a good choice.

 

[rg1]

I used Win 748 with 55 grain bullets for a few years in AR's and my one bolt action .223 Rem. I'd caution going higher than 26.5 grains. My best loads were at 26.4 grains and I believe 26.3 listed at maximum in some manuals is a safe maximum. Win 748 being slightly temperature sensitive shows scary pressure signs in hot summer temps loaded into the 27 grain and above range especially in my bolt action. Don't work up a maximum load in cool weather and shoot the same load in 90 degree weather. Don't know about your Mossberg but my bolt action has a much shorter throat than AR's and not much bullet jump to the rifling.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I didn't want to suggest changing powders because the OP said he is using W748 but not that it has been mentioned...

I use H335 for loading .223 ammo shot in my AR but for my bolt action Howa 1500 I found Varget to produce the most accurate loads. I'm loading a 55gr Sierra Gameking bullet (#1390) and Varget which produces consistent sub 1/2MOA groups at both 100 and 200 yards. (w/CCI400 primers)

 

[W.E.G.]

Use MAGNUM primers if you are going to load near the upper ranges.

Standard small rifle primers are much thinner than magnum small rifle primers.

I had to let pierced primers (CCI 400) ruin quite few bolts and firing pins before I learned my less about this.

55 FMJ w/26.4 grains 748 is very mild load.

 

[Lr_athlete32]

I've been successful using varget with a 50gn nosler ballistic tip varmint bullet, lapua case, and Remington 7½ primer. Usually prints around .40" out of my AR as long as I do my part.

 

[W.E.G.]

Note that SAAMI spec for .223 is 7,000 PSI lower than 5.56

 

[folsoh]

Thanks for all the advice and input. I have just started reloading this year and may have some dumb questions in the near future!

 

[Reloadron]

Hornady V-Max per Hornady 9th Edition using Winchester 748 Powder. Acording to Hornady who made the bullet you load to a COAL of 2.250":
Start: 22.7 gr.
Maximum: 26.4 gr.
Winchester 748 being a ball type powder I would use a magnum type small rifle primer like a CCI 450 which was covered.

Ron

 

[Kaldor]

I didn't want to suggest changing powders because the OP said he is using W748 but not that it has been mentioned...

I use H335 for loading .223 ammo shot in my AR but for my bolt action Howa 1500 I found Varget to produce the most accurate loads. I'm loading a 55gr Sierra Gameking bullet (#1390) and Varget which produces consistent sub 1/2MOA groups at both 100 and 200 yards. (w/CCI400 primers)

Exactly why I suggested 8208 XBR. Varget is good powder, but loading with in volume is so terrible...

 

[climbnjump]

Note that SAAMI spec for .223 is 7,000 PSI lower than 5.56

There is no SAAMI spec for 5.56 NATO.

The max pressures that those QuickLoad screen shots are showing for .223 and 5.56 can't be compared directly because they have been derived from different measuring methods - .223 is measured using SAAMI methods and 5.56 is measured using NATO EPVAT methods.

Due to NATO EPVAT using technically differing proof test standards than SAAMI and C.I.P., EVPAT pressures cannot be directly compared with SAAMI and C.I.P. pressures.

QuickLoad also has a second choice for .223 Rem in the dropdown. That choice is for .223 Rem with pressure measured using the CIP standard. In that case, the max pressure for .223 Rem is the same as for 5.56 NATO - 62,366 psi.

 

[climbnjump]

My question is???? Is this safe as the Hornady manual says to stop at 26.4. My brass looks perfect. I have no over pressure signs. Why are the manuals so different??

Think about variables for a moment. Are all 55 gr bullets alike? Will they all generate the same pressures for a given powder charge just because they weigh the same or are there other factors like bearing surface and construction coming into play? Did the Hornady folks and the Lyman folks share the same proof barrels for testing or did they use actual firearms and different firearms? Even though you are talking about only one powder, was all testing by both sources completed with the same lot of powder? Did they both use the same primers? Did they both do their testing when the moon was full? Sure, that's going a little too far, but you get the idea.

I couldn’t see Lyman printing anything that would push you into dangerous levels but is this common to be different from load to load in difference manuals? As Lyman says I can go to 27.8 grains and still be safe.

CAN you go to 27.8 grains and still be safe? Maybe, maybe not. See the discussion about variables above.

 

[Comrade Mike]

In my experience the Hornady manual is downloaded a bit. YMMV but I've taken Hornady's dimension passed their published loads (using other safe data sources of course) and been totally fine and often gotten better down range performance

My most notable example was their 55 gn flat base soft point. Hornady's load data would barely group past 100. I kept the same dimensions and used the hotter lee data and the rifle starts singing.

 

[Blue68f100]

It's all about the details in how they tested. Brass can have a huge variation in volume. Then different bullet have different jackets giving different friction. Then if the core is hard or soft all effect the friction going down the barrel. Then what ever they used for a test chamber. Some of the manuals have started separating AR from bolt data. Bolt data will be a lot higher, this may account for some of the higher loads. In some cases I have found Hodgdon's pretty close and other times Hornady or Sierra.

To give you an example I have been working up loads for a AR-15 223R Wydle chamber using LC brass. LS brass has a smaller volume than say Winchester or Rem. I actually started getting indications of pressure signs before I hit Hornady's max which was over a 1 gr lower than Sierra.

The bottom line is to always workup your loads for the components your going to use. Once you get to the lower published max it's a good idea to creep up on the charge looking for pressure signs before continuing. On a 223 I jump in 0.2gr increments when doing load work up. If in dought there is no reason to jump in 0.1gr . Just don't load a bunch during your testing. Some load 3 rounds at each level, other 5 -10 . Just be prepared to pull them down if you run into pressure signs.

 

[W.E.G.]

QuickLoad also has a second choice for .223 Rem in the dropdown. That choice is for .223 Rem with pressure measured using the CIP standard. In that case, the max pressure for .223 Rem is the same as for 5.56 NATO - 62,366 psi.

Thank you for pointing that out. I see it now.