NewB Q: Lee "factory crimp" die or Dillon taper crimp die?

[ProfessorX]

I'm reloading my first bottleneck cartridges (.223) and I ended up with a Dillon 3-die set (FL sizer, bullet seater, and taper crimp) which I'm VERY happy with. Upon further thought, I also bought a Dillon case headspace gauge to properly adjust the sizing die. So far I've sized and primed my cases, and I also have installed the seater die and have that properly adjusted. Now comes the time to install/setup the crimp die. The Dillon set includes a taper crimp die....but I also have a brand new Lee "factory crimp" die still in the package (it was given to me some time ago). Now that I am actually at the point of reloading some .223, I need to choose one of the crimp dies. Which one is better? Opinions?

 

[grubbylabs]

I am not sure about the Dillon but the Lee die crimps well no matter what length your brass is and it's easy to set up.

 

[steve4102]

This is a very controversial subject and soon you will have all kinda help telling you that crimping for your 223/5.56 is either a waist of time, bad juju, or both.

If you wish to crimp, then go ahead and crimp and don't let anyone tell you you can't.

The question for me is, why do you want to crimp and what rifles are you loading for.

If you are loading for a Semi-auto, read this. Pay particular attention to the section, "Neck Tension".

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm


I crimp for all my semi-autos with the Lee Factory Crimp die. It helps secure the bullet and improves accuracy. It works with both cannelured and non-cannelured bullets. Unlike the "Taper" crimp die, case length is not critical to the Lee die's use. You cannot buckle a case with the Lee die like you can with a taper crimp die.
In my opinion, the Lee Factory Crimp die is a far better tool/die than any taper crimp die.

 

[Rico567]

The one Dillon pistol seat die I own stays in the box. All my pistol toolheads are fitted with a Lee FCD......I guess that speaks volumes about what I think of it. It crimps well, and has the additional property of "post-sizing" the loaded round, obviating the need to use a case gauge or other "plunk" test.
There are other opinions of the FCD, particularly when it comes to loading lead bullets. I don't do that any more, having gone to plated bullets, so I can't speak to it.

 

[Walkalong]

Lots of folks on both sides of this debate. I prefer the Dillon. The only advantage of the FCD for rifles is case length isn't important. It can be adjusted improperly just like a regular crimp die. I do not crimp any .223 that I expect to be accurate.

As posted, neck tension is more important.

 

[Rico567]

"Walkalong" writes: "Lots of folks on both sides of this debate. I prefer the Dillon. The only advantage of the FCD for rifles is case length isn't important. It can be adjusted improperly just like a regular crimp die. I do not crimp any .223 that I expect to be accurate.

As posted, neck tension is more important."

All true. For rifles. The comments in my previous post were in reference to the Lee FCD for pistols, which is a completely different animal than the Lee FCD for rifles. This is another example of unfortunate nomenclature (similar to Hodgdon's "family" of Clays powders) that causes recurring confusion among handloaders.

1. The Lee FCD for rifles incorporates a collet that squeezed the crimp in on the case neck, rather than rolling the case mouth. As was pointed out, it should probably be avoided for benchrest, varminting, and when accuracy is of primary importance. In semiautomatic rifles, where some crimp is essential, I feel it's the best choice.

2. The Lee FCD for pistols incorporates two elements. First, a floating crimp ring to apply the proper crimp to the round. If you've got a die for a revolver round you get a roll crimp, and if it's for an autoloader round, it's a taper crimp. Second, the die incorporates a carbide sizing ring at the mouth of the die, which will ensure that the exterior of the round is brought down below chamber spec.

As can be seen (this is on p. 28 of the Lee catalog), these dies share little except the name "Factory Crimp Die."

 

[steve4102]

I forgot to mention that you will get a lot of replies telling you that crimping will degrade or destroy accuracy. Most of those making these allegations have never tested the Lee Factory Crimp die themselves, they are just voicing an opinion and stating it as fact.

If you want to know some Facts on how the Lee Factory Crimp die affects accuracy you can go here and view and actual accuracy test, not an opinion.

Enjoy.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

You will also have a hard time getting your question, "I need to choose one of the crimp dies. Which one is better? Opinions?", answered.

Like all crimping threads this will most likely get sidetracked into a debate on crimping itself and not "What die is better". Most will ignore the original question and tell tell you that crimping is bad because...

To stay on topic and answer your question, My Opinion is the Lee die by far. Taper crimping does little to secure the bullet and I have found it to degrade accuracy. I find just the opposite with the Lee die.

 

[Rico567]

^^^^^

Wow. That's an interesting study, "steve4102." Next time I'm reloading for my Remington 700 varmint rifle, I'm going to have to load up some batches with / without and try this out.

 

[steve4102]

Just remember there are varying degrees of crimp with the Lee die. It takes a little effort, common sense and range time to dial in the perfect amount of crimp. Do not over do it.

 

[RussellC]

This is a very controversial subject and soon you will have all kinda help telling you that crimping for your 223/5.56 is either a waist of time, bad juju, or both.

If you wish to crimp, then go ahead and crimp and don't let anyone tell you you can't.

The question for me is, why do you want to crimp and what rifles are you loading for.

If you are loading for a Semi-auto, read this. Pay particular attention to the section, "Neck Tension".

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm


I crimp for all my semi-autos with the Lee Factory Crimp die. It helps secure the bullet and improves accuracy. It works with both cannelured and non-cannelured bullets. Unlike the "Taper" crimp die, case length is not critical to the Lee die's use. You cannot buckle a case with the Lee die like you can with a taper crimp die.
In my opinion, the Lee Factory Crimp die is a far better tool/die than any taper crimp die.

+1 and Amen to that. That said, I do use the Lee crimper, this article seems to think it is the least evil. I use it for precisely the reasoning this same source gives just prior. The risk of the bullet moving out, (or worse in) of the case a little. Neck tensioning in a perfect world would be ideal, but errors there, i.e. headstamps not separated, variations in manufacturers brass lots etc. will tend to temper the end results effectiveness in actual application. I'm not a bench shooter, and if I sacrifice a little accuracy to the Lee Factory crimper, them so be it!

I do intend on getting some of these dies from Redding (whose quality is outstanding) that use the bushings for adjusting neck tension...

Oh, and outstanding article, bookmarked for sure! Thanks for posting it!

Russellc

 

[Walkalong]

"Walkalong" writes: "Lots of folks on both sides of this debate. I prefer the Dillon. The only advantage of the FCD for rifles is case length isn't important. It can be adjusted improperly just like a regular crimp die. I do not crimp any .223 that I expect to be accurate.

As posted, neck tension is more important."

All true. For rifles. The comments in my previous post were in reference to the Lee FCD for pistols, which is a completely different animal than the Lee FCD for rifles. This is another example of unfortunate nomenclature (similar to Hodgdon's "family" of Clays powders) that causes recurring confusion among handloaders.

1. The Lee FCD for rifles incorporates a collet that squeezed the crimp in on the case neck, rather than rolling the case mouth. As was pointed out, it should probably be avoided for benchrest, varminting, and when accuracy is of primary importance. In semiautomatic rifles, where some crimp is essential, I feel it's the best choice.

2. The Lee FCD for pistols incorporates two elements. First, a floating crimp ring to apply the proper crimp to the round. If you've got a die for a revolver round you get a roll crimp, and if it's for an autoloader round, it's a taper crimp. Second, the die incorporates a carbide sizing ring at the mouth of the die, which will ensure that the exterior of the round is brought down below chamber spec.

As can be seen (this is on p. 28 of the Lee catalog), these dies share little except the name "Factory Crimp Die."

Since the op asked about .223, I addressed the FCD for rifles.

Yes, the FCD for pistols is a whole different animal. That is the one where folks really have strong feelings.

 

[Walkalong]

There is more than one way to get good start pressures. No one who shoots long range F-Class etc, or short or long range Benchrest crimps.

Can it help a factory rifle with fat factory chambers/necks and a lot of freebore? Only way to find out is to test it.

 

[ProfessorX]

Thanks for all the input and help. In the end, I decided to go with the Lee factory crimp die. I do have it set for a "mild" crimp, and I feel that some crimp is necessary for my purposes. Thank you all.

 

[morcey2]

There is more than one way to get good start pressures. No one who shoots long range F-Class etc, or short or long range Benchrest crimps.

Can it help a factory rifle with fat factory chambers/necks and a lot of freebore? Only way to find out is to test it.

I use the FCD on almost all of the loads for my military surplus rifles and have never seen it negatively affect accuracy. I have seen it turn several mediocre-shooting rifles into reasonably accurate ones. Almost by definition, these rifles have very generous chambers and necks and lots of freebore.

On my 257 Roberts, it doesn't make any difference either way so they stay uncrimped to reduce the working of the brass at the neck.

Matt

 

[gamestalker]

Some do, and some don't crimp them, I am of the "don't" group. If nothing else, crimping a bottle neck for me is adding just one more unnecessary step to a simple no non sense process.

My advice is if you find it works well for you, and you don't experience any issues getting it dialed in quickly, then do what makes you happy. This topic is pretty much 100% about what you prefer, so don't let anyone influence you one way or the other.

I will add this though, if you are considering crimping because you are concerned about adequate neck tension, then you might want to consider not crimping. Unless you are shooting them from a MG or tubular magazine, it's simply not necessary.

GS