Next Gen Squad Weapon in 6.8 moving forward in 2021 PB

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Here is another photo of the Sig .277 Fury compared to the 308. Top one is the 277 Fury. You can see that the OAL of the case is the same as the 308 but the neck is shorter to prevent the 277 from chambering in 308 or 6.5 CR chambers. The 277 runs at 80,000 PSI vs 60,000 PSI for the 308. The .277 Fury is definitely nothing like the 6.8 SPC.

277fury vs 308.jpg
 
.277 Fury?

Composite case? Don't like that on Old Fart General Principles (OFGP). Why not just make the whole effing case out of steel, as in the 7.62X39? With the mostly unpredictable conditions military ammo has to go through, going to a composite case (esp for automatic arms) is just begging for trouble on both knees.

"Fury?" Sounds like a sales department's hotshot car name, as in the old Plymouth Fury. Wow! Lookit 'er go! I cite the aforementioned OFGPs for my objection.

80,000 "psi"? Don't like that on OFGPs. Despite modern steels and whatnot, just wait till somebody's bore has some extra water in it, or some mud or other bore obstruction. Remember when the .30 Springfield's proof rounds were 75,000 "psi"?

Short neck? Don't like that on OFGPs. I had some trouble with making 7.62x39 dummy and practice rounds from brass cases. Might have been this or it might have been that, but the short brass neck did not seem to hold the bullets well. I decided that maybe the 7.62x39 short neck length was designed to be for steel cases. Might have been or might not have been, but that's the way if looked to this OF.

I hope SIG isn't spending too much on bribery or offering too much post-retirement bennies for decision-makers to go their way.

Terry, 230RN
 
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Shortly after WWI both the US and Britain seemed to arrive at the conclusion that a .277 diameter bullet offered better ballistics than the .30 caliber cartridges then in service. Experiments with the 276 Pederson and 276 Enfield followed. They were still full length cartridges necked down to .277 diameter.For various reasons those cartridges were never adopted.

Actually these were in the .284" bullet diameter range. Until the recent reinvention the only factory .277s were the 6.8 Chinese Mauser which didn't last long, .270 Winchester, and .270 Weatherby. And the .276 Enfield was before WWI. Good thing they didn't have the bugs out and get caught in the middle of changeover when the war started.

From what I remember reading, the downfall for the 276 Pederson was the fact of all the 30-06 ammo held in stockpiles along with having to retool the gov. ammunition plants. Oh and that Gen. McArthur was against it

That is the standard version. Surely there was a lot of ammo in inventory, there were tremendous buildups in preparation for the Spring Offensive of 1919... that did not happen. But did they shoot it up or scrap it? In addition to the government arsenals and the big commercial contractors, there were a lot of minor makes churning out stuff for war orders. A lot of that was crap, contributing to Slamfireish ruin of rifles.

I probably oversimplify the logistics but seems to me that they could have belted that inventory and fresh production on the same lines for machine guns and set up to provide clipped .276 for rifles as they were issued.

The Swedes had an interesting approach. Their standard rifles and machine guns were 6.5mm but they also had an 8x63 heavy machine gun. They also had some Mausers rebarrelled or rechambered for that round. I figure they issued that to MG squads so the crew could if necessary reload their rifles off the end of a machine gun belt.

Say, how do those M249s work with an M16 magazine? I heard not so well.
 
You are correct in that the M249 SAW does NOT work well with M16 magazines even though it designed to feed from them.
 
I have a little bit of experience with the SAW but most of my experiences with belt fed machine guns were with the M2 (vehicle mounted) and the M60. Back then there was a little spring on the SAW that would give out and we would take the spring out of our Govt. ink pens to fix. I preferred the M60 over the SAW.
 
I don't get it it took decades to get an effective SAW chambered for the same round as the service rifle. Yea, I know the BAR and Garand used the 06. The M-60 and the M-14 used the 7.62. But both rounds were really overkill in some minds. So now that we have reached a state of acceptance some idiot want not only to change the caliber, but have two different calibers to deal with. Yep, reminds me of that oxymoron Military Intelligence. Either that or someone is getting one heck of a large kickback. Nah, our politicians and senior military officers would never do that, wold they?
 
I don't get it it took decades to get an effective SAW chambered for the same round as the service rifle.
Well, that is, exactly, the rub of it.

The "light" machine gun concept was born during the second half of WW I. Although not truly recognized until after the second World War. The Light MG, morphed into (or merged; both arguments have merit) into a Squad-level MG.
That conflict also saw infantry units contract in size. Companies reduced to three Platoons, Squads compressed from ±15 to around 8. Which put a premium on single-man portable full auto fires.

Militaries are frugal things, so they all lumbered along with what they had, slowly, glacially, learning in brushfire and Cold War conflicts just how good--or bad--their training and doctrine really were.

What's "new" is a recognition that the Squad's base of automatic fires has to exceed that of its rifles. While remaining single-man portable (meaning no dedicated Assistant Gunner, but that role is tasked to the rest of the Squad as needed). That rules out, mostly, in just moving a General Purpose MG out of the Company's Weapons Platoon down to the Squads; that, and a GPMG ties up about four troopies per MG, or near half a Squad.

Headcount in these things matters. When the BAR was developed, US Army used Rifle Companies with four Rifle platoons, and with Squads of 13 each. So, there was a lot of manpower to absorb the original concept of the BAR, which was 1 Gunner, 2 AG, and 2 Ammo bearers; five troops per BAR.

The world was simpler then, you fielded an army and you gave them ammo. One kind sufficed. And, the longer ranged the better. But, then, "intermediate" cartridges were discovered, for either practical or economic reasons (shorten your service rifle cartridge by a third, and you get a third more rounds for the same amount of powder).
This concept was dropped by brasshats almost as soon as it was implemented.

Yeah, this turns into book-length treatises, quickly.
 
Rant time... :cuss:
This is being driven by the ubiquity of lightweight level IV+ body armor appearing worldwide.
Which means it's doomed to failure.

Why not take a lesson from the middle ages? How did they pierce the armor of medieval nights in full plate? They didn't. Trying to pierce the plate was stupid. Anything that could pierce the armor was too heavy, unwieldy, and unavailable in the quantities needed. (Sound familiar?) Instead they adopted weapons and tactics that did not rely on piercing the plate.

This 50+ year old way of imagining how to fight the Fulda Gap is increasingly annoying and outright obsolete. It has completely screwed over US armored vehicle design for years. If it couldn't bust T-55s and T-72s from the front the US military didn't want it. Leaving a HUGE gap in capability by saddling the military with pockets full of $20 bills to use on $5 problems. (Having to run up to windows and chuck 20 pounds of C4 through a window in Iraq/Afganistan, anyone? Rather than a modern M50 Ontos peeking a corner and doing it from a safe distance. Launching Javelin missiles against infantry instead of a Carl Gustav. Etc.)

Meanwhile, the Israelis and others made the astute observation that war is not conducted on a pool table. Using combined arms, they outmaneuvered their enemies. Heck, even the 75mm M4 Shermans in WW2 beat Panthers from the front by just chucking HE at it until something important broke. Why did that work? Because the US had top notch TRAINING and NUMBERS of weapons to do it. (As an overall package, the Sherman was better anyway.) Likewise here, keep shooting them till you hit something other than the plate. You're going to lose the battle of firepower vs hard armor.

The new, unproven ammunition construction is concerning as well. Not just because of durability issues. $5 says the military doesn't buy the patents/rights to produce the ammunition. Resulting in a single source of high-cost ammunition. Meaning that the new weapon doesn't get issued widely because it's too expensive. Leaving us right back where we started.

Why not simply adopt 100% steel cases?

The Swedes had an interesting approach. Their standard rifles and machine guns were 6.5mm but they also had an 8x63 heavy machine gun. They also had some Mausers rebarrelled or rechambered for that round. I figure they issued that to MG squads so the crew could if necessary reload their rifles off the end of a machine gun belt.
Which reminds me of the Japanese Type 64. While technically chambered in 7.62x51, they used a reduced propellant charge to bring the power down closer to 7.62x39 levels. The advantage of this was that, if needed, they could change the regulator setting and use normal 7.62x51 ammunition if needed. (They assumed that in case of war they would recieve aid from the US.) Though it would result in accelerated wear and tear on the rifle. Yes this does result in the rifle being heavier because it is chambered in 7.62x51, but it greatly simplifies your logistics.

/Armchair warrior mode off... :neener:
 
It seems like all of us Great Armchair Warriors think alike:
Rant time... :cuss:

....

The new, unproven ammunition construction is concerning as well. Not just because of durability issues. $5 says the military doesn't buy the patents/rights to produce the ammunition. Resulting in a single source of high-cost ammunition. Meaning that the new weapon doesn't get issued widely because it's too expensive. Leaving us right back where we started.

Why not simply adopt 100% steel cases?/Armchair warrior mode off... :neener:

Me:
Composite case? Don't like that on Old Fart General Principles (OFGP). Why not just make the whole effing case out of steel, as in the 7.62X39? With the mostly unpredictable conditions military ammo has to go through, going to a composite case (especially for automatic arms) is just begging for trouble on both knees.

Terry, 230RN
 
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