OAL for 45 ACP...???

[Rembrandt]

Help me understand the OAL of 45 ACP. Recently acquired a Wilson Combat and was reading thru the owners manual for recommended loads. It states 1.25 OAL. Seems like the bullets are not seated deep enough. Upon checking some purchased rounds I find they are seated deeper. Hornady manual shows something in between. Somewhat confused....Trust Wilson Combat knows what they are talking about. Help me out.

Trying several bullets:
Hornady 200 gr XTP's (.583 OAL)
Berry's 200 gr Round Shoulder (.506 OAL)
Berry's 200 gr Target HP (.531 OAL)

 

[Obturation]

How does it feed and shoot with shorter OAL?

 

[TonyAngel]

Reloading is more of an art than a science. Well, actually, science gets you to a basic starting point. The art is finding a load for you. Overall length will affect two things. How well the round feeds in your firearm and pressure.

For any given weight of powder used, the deeper the bullet is seated, the higher the pressure will be.

If a bullet is seated such that it is too long, it won't fee properly and in some cases won't even go into the magazine.

I haven't done what you're doing in a long time. My .45 reloading setup has remained set and untouched for about 30 years. If the stated maximum overall length is 1.25", they're probably talking about the maximum length that will physically fit into the magazine. I wouldn't call this spec idiotic, but it is what it is. Fact is that different bullet designs will result in different over all lengths.

Now, I'm about to get technical on you...and please bear in mind that my 1911 will feed empty cases if they are resized so your experience may differ.

When I load lead semi wad cutters (or round nose lead ball), I seat them so that the shoulder of the bullet is just above the case edge. How far above the case edge? This is what I do. I make dummy rounds. Maybe 3 of them. No powder, no primer. I resize the brass and seat the bullet until it is about have way between the shoulder and the lube groove. I make a few of them, then I put them into a magazine and see if they will feed and cycle. What I mean is that I make sure that they will feed into the chamber from the magazine and eject without the round getting caught between the ejector and slide. If it won't do it, them seat them a little deeper. Repeat until they will feed and cycle. When you've done this, check the dummy rounds that you've been experimenting with and see if there are any groove marks on the lead bullets indicating that the rounds engaged the rifling of the barrel. If there are marks. Make one more dummy round and cycle it and check for the marks. If they aren't there, you should be good to go. Crimp that last dummy round and mark it as being your template.

A couple of things to watch out for. When flaring the brass to accept the bullets, don't over do it. You don't want exaggerated flaring to cause feeding issues making you think the bullet is too long. Secondly, when feeding the dummy bullets while cycling by hand, don't just pull the slide back and let it go. These are going to be uncrimped rounds and you don't want the force of the slide going forward driving the bullet deeper into the case. Don't do it ultra slow, but at a rate where you can observe what's going on with the feeding process.

With jacketed bullets, I'll admit, I'm guilty of going into academy sports, popping open a box of cartridges and pulling my calipers out to measure the OAL to get an idea. Other than that, the above applies.

I typically like to seat my bullets as long as possible while still having reliable function. This leaves a larger margin for error in powder charge weight.

As for working up the loads, put any thoughts of loading that bad a$$ round out of your head. For now anyway. What you're looking for is something that reliably functions your pistol and is comfortable to shoot. When I start messing with powder charges, I usually consult at least two published sources and start at the lower end of the range and work up from there. Don't load tons. You could wind up with a bucket full of ammo that won't function your pistol. And I cannot stress this enough. DO NOT exceed published charge weights until you absolutely know what you're doing and you can read the signs of over pressure. Personally, I've never exceeded published charge weights. I also NEVER load rounds for carry. I buy those.

As for the powder, if you are using a progressive press, do yourself a favor and stick to ball powder. Flake powder can have you tearing your hair out trying to get the powder charge to be consistent.

Now, this is NOT advise. I bear no responsibility if you blow yourself up. This is for reference only...the .45 load that I shoot a lot of, is a 200gr lead semi wad cutter seated to a length that reliably functions in MY pistol with anywhere from 4.5 to 5 grains of Accurate No. 2. It is a very comfortable round to shoot ALL DAY.

A word of caution. Many like to load light. Puff loads if you will. PLEASE do some reading up on powder burn rates, their density and their relationship to case capacity. Using too little powder in a cartridge case can cause "detonation" and that is BAD. This sort of thing is more associated with rifles, but can happen with pistols. Also be careful when using faster powders. Accurate No. 2, 231, HP-38 (I don't even know if they make these anymore). The point is that faster powders do not fill the case and it is easy to double dump a charge, which would again be BAD.

Please, take your time and work up.

 

[243winxb]

Find the length from case head to bullet ogive. The ogive you want is where the bullet meets the rifling. Depending on how the barrel is throated, this may work or col will be to long. Adjust as needed to feed.
For slow fire, the bullet may just lightly touch the rifling. For rapid or combat, the bullet is seated deeper, about .005" to .010" Make sure the action will always fully close.

My head to ogive/shoulder is .947" in a Gold Cup 45 acp.

 

[lordpaxman]

Somewhat confused....Trust Wilson Combat knows what they are talking about.

I would suspect Wilson Combat knows about their gun and magazine combination. For a LSWC 1.250 is in the ballpark. In my case, I load the #68 to 1.245. You need a thumbnail thickness of the bullets shoulder above the case mouth. For the other bullet profiles and weights, their OAL may vary. I noticed you measured some bullets, are those your purchased rounds? I didn’t see any LSWC in those pictures, wouldn’t you want to compare apples to apples? And your Hornady manual is showing two different COLs in that picture, turn the page and you’ll find different COLs for different bullets.
Start with the minimum suggested published data and work your way up safely!
One other thing, I like @TonyAngel’s post, but would recommend you at least try other powders, ball or not. VV N320 is a stick but measures really well for a lot of different powder measures. It also performs very well in .45 and others. Good luck!

 

[AJC1]

They provide max oal for function. Any load shorter will cycle if using the standard ball bullets. Fine tuning your loads for different than ball bullets is the reloading science.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't do the plunk test, and I don't seat out my bullets anymore to pass the plunk test. I found that chambers and throats vary. And if the round is too long, it will jam in the throat and prevent the slide from closing. If it is jammed hard enough, you will have a very difficult time racking the slide. Therefore, I prefer to keep the bullet a couple of thousands off the throat. My 1911's are controlled feed and the extractor more or less keeps the base in contact with the breech.

 

[LiveLife]

Help me understand the OAL of 45 ACP. Recently acquired a Wilson Combat and was reading thru the owners manual for recommended loads. It states 1.25 OAL. Seems like the bullets are not seated deep enough.

Hornady 200 gr XTP's (.583 OAL)
Berry's 200 gr Round Shoulder (.506 OAL)
Berry's 200 gr Target HP (.531 OAL)

I think this may help you approach .45ACP reloading simpler and easier - Consider Hollow Point/Truncated Cone/Semi Wad Cutter and Flat Point (In your case Round Shoulder) as RN bullets with either tip cut off or material removed from the contact points that RN bullet makes when it bumps the feed ramp and the chamber wall.

Take a comparison look below at FMJ/RN profile of factory PMC/CCI and Berry's reload along with HSM HP bullet that has RNFP profile. Notice the HP with rounded shoulders have the same profile as the FMJ/RN bullets but just with the tip cut off? Notice how short the OAL is to maintain the same profile above the case mouth as the FMJ/RN bullets?

If you look at below picture, you will notice the RNFP bullet on the right is also loaded to short OAL but is essentially RN bullet with tip cut off. As to Truncated Cone/Semi Wad Cutter profile bullets, imagine a RN profile superimposed behind the TC/SWC profile but material removed from the contact points. As you saw from above picture of different FMJ/RN bullets, you will notice not all RN profile bullets have the same exact profile we call "ogive" (different roundness and length of bullet) and depending on where the contact point is of particular RN profile, determines the nose length and width of HP/TC/SWC profile bullets.

And when many reloaders mention loading SWC with shoulders (Bearing surface of bullet base that engages/rides the rifling) about "thumbnail" thickness above the case mouth, that's because 1/32nd of an inch above the case mouth is how the SWC bullet profile is typically designed to duplicate the RN contact points. Look at below comparison picture of 2 different SWC nose profile bullets and you will notice the bullet on the left with much shorter OAL is essentially SWC bullet on the right with more of nose cut off.

And not all HP bullets have Truncated Cone profile. Take a look at Remington Golden Saber HP bullet below and you will notice it has rounded shoulders that more or less replicate longer RN profile with tip cut off.

So for my load development, regardless of bullet type/profile used, I use the following steps with dummy round (no powder, no primer) to determine the max OAL first then working OAL for my powder work up:

• Using the barrel, determine the "max OAL" that will freely fall into the chamber with a "plonk" and spin without touching the rifling. Walkalong has a great thread for this - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...rel-find-a-max-o-a-l-with-your-bullet.506678/

• Then using max OAL, feed the dummy round from the magazine and release the slide without riding it.

• If the dummy round won't feed reliably, incrementally decrease the OAL (say by .005") until it does. This is your "working OAL".

And once you determined the working OAL, you can reference available published/online load data to conduct your powder work up.

While powder manufacturers provide current online load data, I like referencing Speer online load data as it contains start/max charges for many different powders - https://www.speer-ammo.com/reloading/handgun

Here's Speer load data for 200 gr plated/HP bullets - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...iber_451-454_dia/45_Automatic_200_TMJ_SWC.pdf

And Speer load data for 200 gr lead SWC bullet - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...n/45_caliber_451-454_dia/45_Auto_200_LSWC.pdf


As to limiting yourself only to large flake powders like Unique and Red Dot/Promo to prevent a double charge, I would caution as a double charge of Unique for 200 gr LSWC will not overflow the case. Instead, I prefer to utilize safe reloading practice that will prevent a double charge regardless what powder I am using.

And if you are looking at Vihtavuori powders like N320, consider Alliant Sport Pistol which is around comparable burn rate but burns cleaner at much cheaper price - file:///home/chronos/u-cb07b9aa1a32fb243c11b4084eb32eda82f2081f/MyFiles/Downloads/Sport%20Pistol%20performance%20info%20for%20SHOT%20011017.pdf

Sport Pistol is cut extruded powder like N320 but cut shorter. But since granule size is more uniform than flattened ball powder W231/HP-38, it actually meters better. While W231/HP-38 meters with around .1 gr variance for me, Sport Pistol meters better with less than .1 gr variance - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/c-h-502-micrometer-powder-measure-10-drops.834894/

And if you are looking for higher velocity loads for HP bullets, I have used WSF for decades to produce full power/duplicate factory JHP loads but in recent years, switched to Alliant BE-86 due to greater accuracy powder produced. BE-86 has similar small flake granules as Bullseye powder.

 

[Rembrandt]

OK, I'm beginning to understand this much better. I was trying to find one OAL dimension that would work for three different 45's (Wilson Combat, and two Springfields). The explanations above show that each chamber can vary and the bullet shape is also part of that equation. Do higher pressures from deeper seating equate to higher velocities?

Thank you for the replies!

 

[LiveLife]

Do higher pressures from deeper seating equate to higher velocities?

Yes, specific to bullet seating depth where bottom of bullet ends up.

It is often reason why different load data show different velocities even though similar bullet types and powder charges are used along with different test barrel lengths.

And if you are reloading for multiple pistols, you may need to use different OALs or use shorter OAL that will work in all the pistols.

 

[Havok7416]

I make my bullets short enough to chamber in my tightest barrel/shortest magazine and also make sure I'm not at the high end of my load data if I have to reduce OAL. That way all my ammo works in all my guns of a given caliber. This sometimes results in ammo that doesn't come near listed OAL numbers. But as long as it loads, chambers and hits my target I don't care about that discrepancy.

 

[LiveLife]

But as long as it loads, chambers and hits my target I don't care about that discrepancy.

+1. Often, test barrel fixtures used for chamber pressure testing to develop load data are single shot and do not load from a magazine.

For us who reload for magazine fed semi-auto firearms but not only determine max OAL that will work with the barrel but also the working OAL that will reliably feed from the magazine. Often max OAL can work as working OAL (If the length will also fit in the magazine) but sometimes, working OAL is shorter.

 

[Rembrandt]

And if you are reloading for multiple pistols, you may need to use different OALs or use shorter OAL that will work in all the pistols.

That's what I thought, appreciate the feedback.