Off Duty Carry Ideas

[OldSchooler]

Ive been doing alot of research into "the snubbie thing" and have two of my own - a 'Dick Special'-sized Charter Arms and a Taurus 85. Both +P rated

For armed carry by civilians, off-duty police and backup use, there seems to be a general concensus that the snub wheelgun is hard to beat. I know it "fits" me better than an equally powered auto loader with it's angles and edges.

Also, the power is adequate to the task. We're led to believe that today's perps are supermen, who have been bred to withstand all gunshots and keep on terrorizing the innocent, like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo. Not so, apparently.

Stats show that merely brandishing a weapon ends most encounters about 90% of the time. Even your average "dumb criminal" will recognize the .38 snub for the threat it is. If it comes to a shoot, the .38 +P offers around 75% one shot stops in some of the new, fast/light ammo developments. Even the old "FBI" load (158 gr SWCHP +P) is said by most to be as good a stopper as .45 ball when it hits the spots that matter. If you dont hit these spots, it doesnt matter what you use. I like the slower, heavier bullet idea, myself.

Can it be better? In some ways - but it's a trade off. A comparably sized auto in a comparative caliber, like the 9MM, gives only a little more oomph in real shootings from short barrels. Anything bigger is going to be proportionally harder to conceal and concealment is the primary goal of these guns. Otherwise you'd just strap on a full size service auto.

Too, the auto loader is a powered mechanism, where a wheel gun is merely mechanical - it depends only on the power of a finger to operate. The auto gun does offer fast reloads, which means better tactics are in order with the revolver. Will it matter in the world of "hit em hard, NOW," close encounters, where the incident is decided in just a few shots? I dont know... I try not to find out. Most knowledgeable experts say no.

But, lets face it, the majority of us travel in fairly tame orbits. Our goal should be the practice of better tactics: Avoidance, Ancillary and Awareness.

Oh, and to remember the First Rule Of Gunfighting: Bring a Gun. The snub is "easy to have on hand, all the time."

For us, the snub is going to be "enough," on all counts.

 

[MCgunner]

Can it be better? In some ways - but it's a trade off. A comparably sized auto in a comparative caliber, like the 9MM, gives only a little more oomph in real shootings from short barrels.

Hmm, my own loads...

Taurus M85 UL with either 158 or 140 grain JHPs +P loads about 265 ft lbs

Kel Tec P11 11 rounds and smaller than the Taurus. 9mm+P about 410 ft lbs using a 115 grain Hornady XTP bullet.

I calculate the 9mm is packin' 154% the energy of the .38 and that's pretty significant. It's actually as good as most .357 magnum loads could put up in a 2" gun and much easier to shoot. However, I do agree that the .38 is adequate for self defense even more so than the 380 ACP I often am forced by dress or other consideration to carry. I really prefer not to rely on that 380 if I can get around it, but I feel adequately armed with a .38. If I was an off duty cop, though, I think I'd want the higher firepower of the nine or a compact .40, personally. As a civilian, I'm only interested in self defense and not in forcing an issue. As an off duty cop, I think I'd feel better with more ammo on my person and in the gun. Another thing, spare rounds for compact autos are flat and easier to carry/conceal in the spare magazines. Speedloaders are lumpy. Too, I can't use a speedloader worth a toot, much better with an auto on my reloads and I suspect I'm not the only one. Most people who aren't named Miculek tend to be quicker reloading an auto.

 

[OldSchooler]

Good points. I aint knockin the 9MM or the autoloader in general. There are many reasons why it works, too.

But the ballistic calculations dont always add up to real world stuff. In actual shootings from short autos, the good .38 Special +P and the 9MM rounds are close. Visit Sanows site, Firearms Tactical Institute, and look at what he gathers there.

I prefer the .38 revolver, that's all, and I guess on more than one level I sing its praises. I like the features of the auto, especially magazine loading. I hate them when they jam, which they always seem to do sooner or later, no matter what ammo I use. That shakes my confidence in them. SO, I prefer to live with the .38 snub. My choice, and mine alone.

Thanks for the great response, man.

 

[MCgunner]

I carry either/or depending on my mood or what I'll be doing that day. I have this little Taurus M85UL. I had a front sight dovetailed into it with an elevation wire in it that matches the POA for my light loads for shooting small game. I reload a 105 grain SWC for that. I carry the 158 or 140 grain JHP +P load in it for defense and it's plenty. This gun is stainless/alloy and I like that for outdoor concealed carry. So, if I'm going fishing, down to my place to work on something, what not, I'll carry the revolver. Mall with the ol' lady or about anything social, I carry the 9. That nine has fired thousands of jam free rounds. I keep it clean, don't worry about jams at all.

I feel a little more well armed with all that firepower and the added power of the +P 115 grain stuff which IIRC the M/S data likes a lot, up in the 90s with Cor Bon 115 grain +P JHP. It puts up something like 1320 ft lbs out of my Ruger P85/ about 450 lbs or there abouts. It's clockin' 1260 out of the 3" barrel of my Kel Tec for 410 ft lbs, so there's not much loss for the short barrel in 9x19. It shoots a fast powder (Unique in my load) as opposed to a .357 which shoots a slower powder and depends more on barrel length to work. The 9 is a very efficient round.

BTW, now that you've mentioned the M/S statistics, there's going to be a bunch of .45ACP guys jump in here and turn this into a caliber war by screaming at you that M/S are communists. :banghead: I use their work as somewhat of a guide, but don't read it literally. I don't think even Evan Marshall says it should be used literally. It just gives an idea how certain loads stack up against one another, or have stacked up against one another in real life shootings. IIRC, your FBI load in their stats is a low 70 percent rated load and .45ACP ball is 60% or there abouts, though I admit I don't keep up with the latest of their work. That would mean the good ol' .38 is actually a better stopper than .45ACP ball. The better loads in .45, of course, push mid 90 percents, the +P stuff, but I sure don't wanna get shot with .45ACP ball.

As others will iterate if this does turn into a caliber war, it's not so much the caliber, but where you place your shots that really counts. .38 is certainly an easy round to shoot and little snubbies are VERY accurate, or at least the norm for them is to be very accurate. I've yet to own a .38 snub, even Rossis, that couldn't put five rounds into 3" at 25 yards. I've owned (and gotten rid of) much bigger autos that couldn't come close to that.

 

[Marshall]

I carry either/or depending on my mood or what I'll be doing that day. I have this little Taurus M85UL. I had a front sight dovetailed into it with an elevation wire in it that matches the POA for my light loads for shooting small game. I reload a 105 grain SWC for that. I carry the 158 or 140 grain JHP +P load in it for defense and it's plenty. This gun is stainless/alloy and I like that for outdoor concealed carry. So, if I'm going fishing, down to my place to work on something, what not, I'll carry the revolver. Mall with the ol' lady or about anything social, I carry the 9. That nine has fired thousands of jam free rounds. I keep it clean, don't worry about jams at all.

I feel a little more well armed with all that firepower and the added power of the +P 115 grain stuff which IIRC the M/S data likes a lot, up in the 90s with Cor Bon 115 grain +P JHP. It puts up something like 1320 ft lbs out of my Ruger P85/ about 450 lbs or there abouts. It's clockin' 1260 out of the 3" barrel of my Kel Tec for 410 ft lbs, so there's not much loss for the short barrel in 9x19. It shoots a fast powder (Unique in my load) as opposed to a .357 which shoots a slower powder and depends more on barrel length to work. The 9 is a very efficient round.

BTW, now that you've mentioned the M/S statistics, there's going to be a bunch of .45ACP guys jump in here and turn this into a caliber war by screaming at you that M/S are communists. I use their work as somewhat of a guide, but don't read it literally. I don't think even Evan Marshall says it should be used literally. It just gives an idea how certain loads stack up against one another, or have stacked up against one another in real life shootings. IIRC, your FBI load in their stats is a low 70 percent rated load and .45ACP ball is 60% or there abouts, though I admit I don't keep up with the latest of their work. That would mean the good ol' .38 is actually a better stopper than .45ACP ball. The better loads in .45, of course, push mid 90 percents, the +P stuff, but I sure don't wanna get shot with .45ACP ball.

As others will iterate if this does turn into a caliber war, it's not so much the caliber, but where you place your shots that really counts. .38 is certainly and easy round to shoot and little snubbies are VERY accurate, or at least the norm for them is to be very accurate. I've yet to own a .38 snub, even Rossis, that couldn't put five rounds into 3" at 25 yards. I've owned (and gotten rid of) much bigger autos that couldn't come close to that.

Run that by me again.

 

[MCgunner]

Run that by me again.

Umm, yeah, .38's great.

 

[OldSchooler]

I mentioned Sanow as just an example of what is out there in the way of data taken from actual shootings with real guns - not jello or milkjug assaults. You are, of course, right in that the statistics are all over the map. But when taken as a whole, and eliminating the extremes, the .38 shoehorns nicely into the, "Decent Smackdown/Controllable Concealability" niche.

Sure you lose something, but a handgun, any handgun, is a study in compromise. If I knew I was going into a gunfight Id surely take something else - better, yet, I'd stay home in bed that day. Its just that a snub can be THERE when you need it. It isnt a bother to live with, always having to turn this way or that so you dont "print" and possibly scare your fellow sheep-izens.

In fact, I find that I forget it's there at times, especially with pocket carry or certain IWB carries. That in itself is a challenge - Rule Number One of Concealed Carry is to "Remember That You ARE Carrying" (or it should be).

I read something recently that puts these things in perspective. According to real LE shooting reports, most criminals within 20 feet, or 2 car lengths, even when shot, still have enough steam to come get your ass. If they are carrying a knife, for example, you'll likely be stabbed, maybe fatally. Especially if they are sufficiently adrenalized or drug induced at the time. Under stress, can you hit them where it counts enough times, to keep them from crossing that 20 foot "Drop Zone?"

Remember, we know this because this is data from genuine, righteous cop shootings with 9MM, .357's, and one presumes, the newer midbores. I remember Mas Ayoob made much of this back in the 80's when he was a columnist with Combat Handguns. These incidents involve cops who at least train, practice and qualify on a periodic basis. And to be fair, these are also LE encounters, which by their very nature, are "pumped up" to start with.

But it is a sobering thought, all told. It puts all our planning, "caliber wars" and other regurgitations into the realm of a crapshoot, any way you slice it.

However, it's been my experience that in any crapshoot, you can't possibly come out a winner if you dont bring your stake. Id rather that be snub in pocket than some too-big, heavy assed auto I left at home.

 

[Huddog]

638 is a good buy adn a great weapon. Looks like your course is set up for 6 shot weapons so be careful about running dry. Snubbys can be shot well as most are more accurate than the operator using it. Practise is required and excellent practise produces excellent results. Good Luck