Officer Involved Shooting report...

[Fred Fuller]

...from John Farnam:
-----------------------

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/30Jan07.html

30Jan07

Shooting incident in SC, from a friend and LEO there:

"Late last week, three of our uniformed, patrol officers responded to a loud, family dispute. After arriving and making contact, our officers managed to calm things down, and the man was eventfully persuaded to leave the house for the balance of the evening. Two of the three officers remained behind, while the third returned to his parked, beat car. The male suspect politely asked if he could put together an overnight bag, and our officers permitted him to go into the master bedroom for this purpose. Less than a minute later, he came out shooting!

With pistol in hand, he shot at both of our officers and his estranged girlfriend. One of his bullets grazed the cheek of one of our officers. The other officer was unhurt, as was the woman. Both officers, and the woman, fled the house, and the suspect chased after them, shooting as he ran.

Hearing the excitement, the officer at the vehicle retrieved his shotgun, just in time as it turns out. At a range of twenty feet, he shot the suspect in the chest with a single round of 00 buckshot. The suspect responded by turning around and retreating back to the house, closing the door behind him.

SWAT was called out, but, when they arrived and probed the house, they found the suspect DRT in the living room. Autopsy revealed that he died as a result of the shotgun wounds.
==========snip======= (Bolding mine. For clarification- "DRT"= dead right there.)

Once again comes the reminder- even with everything in your favor when defending yourself with a shotgun, DO NOT ASSUME there will be a one shot stop. Be prepared to shoot again instantly if it proves to be necessary.

In this case the energy available to retreat, could have been used to press home the attack. Human beings are remarkably tough organisms- never lose sight of that fact, and never underestimate an assailant.

If an attacker is still advancing, still aiming a firearm at you after being shot (or shot at), you'd best have made your weapon ready to fire again immediately upon first discharge. Don't just sit there with a dead hull in the chamber wondering "Why didn't he fall?" It might get you killed.

Expect the worst, hope for the best- even in the most dire of circumstances.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

(And the index if you want to read more: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html .)

 

[dpote]

Holy crap! I thought I was tough.
This is a good training tip, and something to practice/think about.
I'm new to shotguns. What would a failure to stop drill for a shotgun entail?
I imagine it's the same as a pistol, double tap or Mozambique.
Could practice be hitting the biggest piece of a clay target as well?

Dave

 

[zinj]

I think this should give anyone recommending or loading birdshot second thoughts...

 

[Fred Fuller]

dpote,

Every decision to pull a trigger in a self-defense situation must be made as a separate and legally defensible action. Planning any course of action in advance involving self defense with a firearm that does not include fully evaluating the effect of any previous rounds fired can easily put you in serious legal jeopardy yourself.

For that reason I hesitate to advise anything beyond making sure your weapon is immediately ready to fire again if needed. Each decision to fire has to be made given consideration for the existing circumstances at that particular instant. It may seem I am far too concerned about this- but having seen examples of people who were legally crucified for pulling the trigger just one time too many in what was otherwise a completely justifiable shooting, I tend to be cautious.

A while back I was lucky enough to get to attend Skip Gochenour's presentation based on the lecture notes at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . I strongly suggest you read it carefully and repeatedly. It might save you some legal trouble down the line.

As to practice on fast followups, anything you can manage that offers you a second target or a second shot at a given target can work. Let your imagination be your guide- but don't ever let your mind run on autopilot where pulling the trigger is concerned.

You don't have to pose for a Rodin sculpture ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thinker ) while making up your mind, of course. But there needs to be a thought process involved that you can reiterate in court if you have to. You need to be able to demonstrate why a 'reasonable man' would have found it necessary to pull the trigger- or pull it again, or again- if you are called on to do so.

Louis Awerbuck calls the shotgun 'a thinking man's weapon.' In this regard they all are. But with a shotgun, given its vaunted ability to turn off bad actors- you may have to be able to clearly describe real reasons why you as the legal-standard 'reasonable man' decided to pull the trigger again. Be sure you are able... because even if you don't have to answer that question in court, you certainly will need to answer it in your own mind in the still watches of the nights which follow.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

 

[sm]

Lee,

Great Reminder , Great Lesson shared in original thread.
Your follow up posts are most appreciated by me as well.

Steve.

 

[October]

Every decision to pull a trigger in a self-defense situation must be made as a separate and legally defensible action.

Does anyone else read this and think it would be a good idea to require all lawyers to have to go through an actual firefight before being allowed to practice law?

Actually, I see more than one upside to this idea.

 

[Striker]

Good reminder Lee.

Jim Cirillo recounts a similar situation when he was working on the NYPD Stakeout Squad.

IIRC, (but this might be a bit fuzzy), he engaged three armed robbers during a stakeout with a Ithca Mdl 37 and slugs at room distance. he got slid COM hits on two and was about to address the last, when he noticed that one of the first two was still standing and starting to raise he pistol at him. He prevailed, but noted as a result of his experience that you can't rely on an immediate "one shot stop" even with a 12 ga slug.

 

[dpote]

Lee, thank you for an excellent response. It was exactly what I was looking for. The link you provided is outstanding. I have not been to that site before, and has great information.
The referenced article by Skip Gochenour, has been printed and will be learned.

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[Fred Fuller]

You're welcome, all.

I have been lucky enough in the past couple of years to see Farnam, Awerbuck, Cirillo and Gochenour at work in person and to benefit from their combined years of wisdom and experience. Just trying to pass along lessons learned, to share, to help.

lpl/nc (Cirillo thought it was cute that my wife and I held hands in class- he's not as crusty as he makes out to be 8^)

 

[.45&TKD]

Originally Posted by Lee Lapin
Every decision to pull a trigger in a self-defense situation must be made as a separate and legally defensible action.

While that may be true, if he's still armed and standing, he's still the same threat. I think it would be reasonable to keep shooting. If deadly force is justified, deadly force is justified until the threat is eliminated.

Now, if he has dropped his weapon and is laying on the ground, that's another story.

 

[Steve C]

DO NOT ASSUME there will be a one shot stop. Be prepared to shoot again instantly if it proves to be necessary.

Good point even though by definition this was a ONE SHOT STOP.

The assailant was shot one time (with the 12ga) and stopped hostile action after being shot that one time.

 

[Coronach]

Eh, yes and no.

Did he stop? Yes. Because he chose to stop. He was not incapacitated, which is the (well, MY) definition of a "stop" in this context.

Regardless of the answer to this next question, the OP raises a very valid point; ain't nothin' fo' sure but Jesus.

Was it a square hit, or was he just winged by the buckshot?

Mike

 

[sixgunner455]

Glad they made it out okay.

I'll just bet, though, that the watch commanders are going to be reviewing this incident with all officers, making sure that they understand they should not to let someone go into another part of a building unaccompanied on a call like this. That decision could have had tragic results for the whole agency.

 

[Gordon]

Hi! I just got back from 4 (gruelling -'tripod' in the dirt)days in LA doing the ITTS advanced handgun series. Louis Awerbuck 'happened' to be giving SG 1 there at the same time. I got to watch a SG class for a change, was glad not to have the 'necktie' and 'saddle bag' on for 3 days! What I saw was a lot of double tap practice on movers. This is very realistic I think. In fact I saw Scotty , who was assisting Louis , doing 'failure drills' with slugs quite a bit! Good on that officer who put lead into the scumbag ,
but wouldn't have been nicer if he was trained to 'run the bolt' and put a gun weilder down? THAT would be a perfect world , eh Lee?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Gordon,

A full AAR (after action report) on the training session has been posted, right 8^)? Glad to have a Louis sighting from a reliable source, hope to get to see him this summer for a carbine class with my wife. Oh yeah, really ought to get busy building her that carbine.

Just glad it wasn't me who had to dig a shotgun out of the trunk with a BG popping caps 20 feet away. I hate the thought of such a thing, would rather have 8 pounds of 870 hung around my neck all day every day than once have to try to retrieve it from somewhere locked away when i needed it. As to how many rounds adrenalin might spur me to get off in a couple or three seconds, i'd as soon not speculate. Hope I never have to find out either.

lpl/nc

 

[ravencon]

It is instructive to read and reread the writings of the old timers of the U.S. Border Patrol who had frequent fire fights. It is amazing how much punishment an amped up person can take and keep on fighting. Shot guns, rifles and big-bore handguns, even with good shot placement, don't guarantee an instant end to hostile action.