One Box One Bird My Journey to Better Shotgunning

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Everyone I know/have known who shot doves out West and back here in the East used 20s, 28s, and 410s.
 
Here's a concurrent discussion on doves:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rabbit-dove-guns.853743/#post-11180254

The downside of a lighter gun in clays games is you get more felt recoil. While hunting, you don't notice it as much, because adrenaline affects felt recoil. The recoil is still there, but adrenaline's effects minimize the perception. It can also produce tachypsychia (the perceived slow-down of time), and auditory exclusion. I never heard the gun go off when I shot my first deer, for instance, nor felt the recoil. This is why clays games guns tend to be heavier than field models. Trap being the longest established clays game, has the heaviest guns. Sporting Clays guns are the most similar to field guns for two reasons; It is the newest clays game, and since Sporting Clays is supposed to simulate various hunting conditions, the guns tend to stay closer to field models, and more SC shooters use their field gun for it. In all the clays disciplines, you'll find the top shooters' guns are specialized for that particular discipline.

There is nothing wrong with using your field gun for a few rounds of Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays a year to hone your hunting skills. That's what the games were designed for. Just be aware Newton's law still applies. Lighter guns will kick more, all other things being equal. Trap is more for pheasant hunting, and duck, Skeet, duck and dove, Sporting clays, every type of hunting. If grouse and woodcock are your pursuit, find a club that has Helicé , AKA ZZ birds:


They simulate the flight of grouse and woodcock better than anything I've ever seen. Very spendy game, but great practice.
 
ZZs are the most challenging shotgun game out there - and as addictive as crack cocaine.
 
I am excited for Friday's lesson. I'll bring my 12 gauge and 20 gauge Sterlingworths as well as my S&W 916T that I now have an I/C barrel for and we will see what I need to be shooting. It will be interesting if I have developed any bad habits since my first lesson.

I am pretty comfortable with the 12 gauge Sterlingworth but the 20 gauge Sterlingworth is just so 'Svelte' in my hands and it shoulders perfectly. it is 1 1/4 pounds lighter than the 12 gauge with 26" barrels choked cylinder/modified. Chambers have previously been extended to 2 3/4". It just feels great in my hands. I hope I can shoot it as well as the 12 gauge. The 20 does have a modern recoil pad on it but I'm interested in how much recoil will be felt. I long ago learned how to manage recoil and usually big boomers don't bother me. Of course I don't shoot my 458 Win Mag from a bench. That was an easy lesson to learn. I don't care for the S&W in general but mostly because of reliability issues. It was, and still is, a terrible gun design. It shoot fine when it shoots though.
 
Looks like I'll have to delay the first fire of the 20 gauge Sterlingworth. Manufactured in 1913 originally with a 2 3/8" chamber firing a 7/8 oz. payload with a 2 1/4 Dram Equivalent charge I'm going to hold off first fire until I get some RST low pressure shells. It currently sports a 2 3/4" chamber but all of the modern shells are loaded to 2 1/2 Dram Equivalent and I just don't want to take a chance.
 
Don't know about 2-3/8"; have seen 2-1/2 and 2-9/16 (more likely). Main thing with older guns is to get the Vintager low pressure loads
 
Yes. I'm not going to take a chance.

The gun was manufactured in 1913 to shoot 2 1/2" shells but Fox intentionally cut their chambers 1/8" short. It is the same on my 1923 12 gauge Sterlingworth. Made to shoot 2 3/4" shells but measures 2 5/8" I have read this several places but cant remember exactly where.
 
Apparently there is some documentation from Fox on the issue. I have never seen it. But I was able to confirm on my 12 gauge that it has a 2 5/8" chamber. Internet knowledge seems to support that there is no ill effects from firing 2 3/4" shells.
 
Although I don't have access to the documents referenced, below is a quote from a member of several firearms related forums on the subject of the chamber size. There is internet speculation that the short chamber sealed the chamber better with shells of the day.

http://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopic.php?t=351

In the recently published book "The Parker Story" the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in "The American Rifleman" (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A recent issue of The Double Gun Journal carried an article on tests showing no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers.
 
Apparently there is some documentation from Fox on the issue. I have never seen it. But I was able to confirm on my 12 gauge that it has a 2 5/8" chamber. Internet knowledge seems to support that there is no ill effects from firing 2 3/4" shells.
Do not listen to that. 2-3/4" is the fired length and modern shells with modern crimps will have that crimp open up into the forcing cone on your short chamber thus spiking chamber pressures - possibly to unsafe levels. It's YOUR eyes and hands, so do what you want, but - if it were me - I'd either have the chamber lengthened to 2-1/2" and shoot low pressure or go another direction entirely.
 
Here's a concurrent discussion on doves:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rabbit-dove-guns.853743/#post-11180254

The downside of a lighter gun in clays games is you get more felt recoil. While hunting, you don't notice it as much, because adrenaline affects felt recoil. The recoil is still there, but adrenaline's effects minimize the perception. It can also produce tachypsychia (the perceived slow-down of time), and auditory exclusion. I never heard the gun go off when I shot my first deer, for instance, nor felt the recoil. This is why clays games guns tend to be heavier than field models. Trap being the longest established clays game, has the heaviest guns. Sporting Clays guns are the most similar to field guns for two reasons; It is the newest clays game, and since Sporting Clays is supposed to simulate various hunting conditions, the guns tend to stay closer to field models, and more SC shooters use their field gun for it. In all the clays disciplines, you'll find the top shooters' guns are specialized for that particular discipline.

There is nothing wrong with using your field gun for a few rounds of Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays a year to hone your hunting skills. That's what the games were designed for. Just be aware Newton's law still applies. Lighter guns will kick more, all other things being equal. Trap is more for pheasant hunting, and duck, Skeet, duck and dove, Sporting clays, every type of hunting. If grouse and woodcock are your pursuit, find a club that has Helicé , AKA ZZ birds:


They simulate the flight of grouse and woodcock better than anything I've ever seen. Very spendy game, but great practice.


Another Helice video - but watch your volume as it has a techno-music background

 
I knew what George was saying. And thanks all.

I think I’ll stick with clays and skeet for now. But interesting.
 
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Today's lesson went well. I have been shooting my 12 gauge sterlingworth in practice but brought both the 20 gauge sterlingworth and my 12 gauge S&W 916T pump action. I don't have the appropriate low pressure shells for the 20 but we used his laser to determine if the fit was right. Turns out it may not be as the laser showed left when the trigger was pulled. We won't know for sure until I shoot it with live rounds. Now the cheap 916T (IC) fit and worked really well. It has dimensions similar to an 870. That is all we shot in today's lesson and in my mind was Indestinguishable from th sterlingworth in performance. The 916T is a 3" fixed choke pump but I have both 26" IC and 30" full chokes. It works great WHEN it works. They are very prone to stoppages.

The instructor found no systemic bad habits since the first lesson. He even commented that I was able to diagnose what I did wrong and correct it. The biggest issue was that I sometimes come off the gun when pulling the trigger ruining the shot. We worked on follow through today. Bottom line is when I do it right I can feel it. And when I dont I can correct for what I did wrong.

We discussed practice and agreed that staying on the Clay's practice station is the most effective for cost reasons and how the trap range is run. We dont have a traditional skeet range but a multi use range.

Overall I'm staying at the 70% hit ratio and I'm happy with the progress so far. I just need more repetition to solidify things.
 
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The biggest issue was that I sometimes come off the gun when pulling the trigger ruining the shot.

Wood on wood. That's one of the 'matras' of trap and skeet shooting. It means keep your face on the gun. Another one similar is "Stay in the Gun". means the same thing, plus follow through. Many top shooters use a word or phrase either said or thought before calling 'pull' that helps them. Those are two of them; currently I use 'Smooth' as a stand in for "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast", which beside the SF meaning, to me means there is plenty of time to hit the bird.
 
So I took the new 20 gauge Sterlingworth out yesterday. As much as I want to use it I don’t shoot it as well as my 12. Dropped to 50%. I have decided that this gun will shoot only low pressure 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. shot due to its age (105) and how petite it is. That didn’t help but I’m pretty sure I just need to be a better shot gunner in general. Followed up immediately with the 12 gauge and did much better.

Brought a 16 gauge Lefever to test a replaced firing pin this morning. Pin was fine but my shooting sucked. Followed that up with the 20 and continue to suck. Both shot with 2 1/2” low pressure shells. I stopped before I reinforced anything bad.

I’ll go back out tomorrow but with the 12 and try to get back on track.
 
Keep in mind, SxS shotguns are the hardest format to shoot, except drillings, which add a rifle barrel's weight to them. So it's kinda like learning to paddle a canoe going upstream on the Colorado in the rapids.
 
I can see that. I can always use my 12 gauge pump if I wanted. It has a 26" barrel with an improved cylinder choke and I can shoot that as well as my 12 gauge Sterlingworth. I could shoot a larger payload in it if I wanted. But there is something about shooting a SxS.

My initial goal is to shoot better. I figure whatever I learn on the SxS I can translate to any other shotgun. So I'm going to continue to train with the 12 gauge Sterlingworth. As far as the SxS goes, that is a different thing. I'd love to shoot the 20 SxS as well as the SxS 12 but I have time to do that. I do realize I am mixing the two issues together.
 
Although I went out Saturday function testing the 16 gauge replaced firing pin and the new 20 gauge, I had a terrible day on Saturday. I went back out on Sunday shooting my 12 gauge and brought the 20 gauge so I could pattern it only. The day with the 12 gauge was pretty normal with 18 out of 25 and I think it would have been better had I paced myself better. I shot 10 in a row before I would sit down and rest my support arm. By then my support arm was pretty tired. I believe I would have done better if I had stopped at 5 shots. Still, 18 out of 25 isn't bad. So, I'm pretty confident in my 12 gauge Sterlingworth.

I learned a couple of things patterning the 20 gauge. First, despite that they look similar, the stock on the 20 is not the same as the 12 gauge. The 20 gauge has a much 'shallower' curve to the pistol grip making the comb about 1" higher on the 20 gauge compared to my 12 gauge. They are both the same length as far as the wood is concerned but the 20 gauge has a recoil pad on it that makes it about 1 1/2" longer. The different stock dimensions may well be the reason I am shooting poorly with the 20 gauge. NOTE: I'm not an expert on patterning a shotgun and I'm not just blaming the gun for poor performance. But there might be something to the fit that isn't helping. I shouldered the 20 gauge just as if I would when shooting at clays. Here are the patterns for both barrels.

20 Gauge Right Barrel - Cylinder

20 Rt Shouldered Post.jpg

20 Gauge Left Shouldered - Modified

20 Left Shouldered Post.jpg

With the dove season a month away I am focusing on becoming as good as I can using my 12 gauge (which I also patterned yesterday). But I'm interested in the general consensus of this group on stock fit and its ability to impact success rate as well as what the pattern might tell us.

BTW - the patterns was shot at 25 yards not 40. For some reason the range ran out of space and there isn't a 40 yard firing point for this pattern board. It can be shot at 35 yards but 25 is where my instructor has been using for the pattern tests on all of my shotguns.
 
So, was that a typo or did you fire the right barrel off the right shoulder, and the left off the left?

But I'm interested in the general consensus of this group on stock fit and its ability to impact success rate as well as what the pattern might tell us.

As we've mentioned before, (Both George and I have anyway) stock fit is very important for good shooting. Can one learn to shoot a gun that doesn't fit? Yes, I did it the first 5 years I shot shotguns. Started with a 20 ga. bolt action, got my first duck (somehow) with it. Dad 'graduated' me up to a 12 ga. H&R Topper that kicked the snot out of me, and was too large at first. I hated that gun. Then he got me a Stevens 311 with a Tenite stock; Still a bit light, but at least that one fit me fairly well. (I'd hit my growth spurt) Hunted with that one for a couple years until my Dad let me use his old 1100, he'd just bought a new one. I fell in love with the way it felt, and the way I shot with it. I started shooting Skeet with my Dad, then Trap. The down side to that gun was it was old when I got it (First year of manufacture, 1960, I got it in '78) and it malfunctioned a lot. I learned to work on it, practically rebuilt it to get it working right. (That's how I actually got my start gunsmithing-people at the range heard I could fix shotguns...) I then bought an 870 when I turned 18, and have shot them until I traded mine in on my 1100 Competition Synthetic in May. Remingtons fit me well; my first rifle was a Rem. 742, and the .22 I learned on was a Remington 572, all 4 are very similar in profile and fit.

I agree with you. if you can learn to shoot a SxS well, it makes other actions seem easier. We have a guy at our club who buys old shotguns, most of them SxS, and rebuilds and restores them. He occasionally brings one out for a round of trap; He's a very good shot, and only got a 21 with the Fox Sterlingworth he brought out last time. He was using 2 1/2" shells, this one was mfg. in 1908.
 
I left a word out of the title of the second photo. It should have read 'Left 'BARREL' shouldered.

I don't particularly want to shoot an ill fitting gun. But in the previous thread there was a discussion on adjustable butt plates. Is that a possibility? I'd love to be able to shoot this 20.
 
I ordered the adjustable butt plate for the 20 gauge on Friday. Not sure if it will make it next week or not. We'll see if that helps or not. I'm thinking of scheduling another lesson with my instructor to adjust it.

In the mean time I removed the recoil pad and shot it today to see if it would help. It did not. Although the stocks are the same length of pull (sans recoil pad) the 20's comb is an inch higher and the wrist is so small. I continue to practice with the 12 gauge. It will be my go to shotgun for this season.
 
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