Open carry an AR-15???

[DrewBegley]

The other day I went to a gunshop new to me, but it's been around for about 40 years or so. As i pulled in, there was an individual standing outside with an AR on a single-point sling with his hand on the grip; he was even indexing the trigger as I walked up. He put out his cigarette, asked if I needed any help and opened the door for me.


I soon realized he worked there and though he was plenty courteous, I am still left pondering if it were a very good idea on his part. I open carry in Virginia where legal and have no problem with carrying handguns in holsters, but this is somewhat ridiculous in my mind. He was on a busy street corner in broad daylight, not in some backwoods dirt road shooting range.

I believe the concern here is: Is this at all legal? I'd also like to know what everyone else thinks on the subject considering different states allow different carrying.

-Thanks!

 

[Zoogster]

While in favor of open carry I think carrying a firearm in a manner from which it can be fired is beyond open carry, and one should feel intimidated by the immediate threat it poses.


Carried over a shoulder in an American Carry style is open carrying a long gun in a way that is not immediately menacing. On a single point sling with a hand on the grip is not carried, it is at the ready.
Since a single point sling requires a hand to control the firearm, it is essentially always being handled in a way that says the person is immediately ready to shoot something.
That would really be no different than someone walking down the street with a handgun in their hand, as opposed to in a holster/pocket/waistband. Someone on a public street with a handgun in their hand would and should alarm someone.
The guy with a rifle on a single point sling, or to a similar extent the guy with a two point tactical sling holding his firearm in a manner that allows it to be used is no different than the guy walking down the street with a handgun in hand held by his side.




I am all for someone open carrying their handgun, but the moment I see someone walking around with a handgun in their hand I would be in high alert, especially if there appeared to be no defensive reason. Likewise someone with a rifle held in a manner that it is immediately ready to use, and is merely not aimed at someone, should invoke the same reaction.
Now if they are hunting or otherwise in a situation where a gun immediately ready for shooting something is appropriate that is another story. If they are on a public street I would consider them a potential immediate lethal threat to myself or someone else until proven otherwise.
The guy opening the door and being polite before turning back to do whatever he was doing may have shown he was fine, but that was well after the point he could have been a nut that put a bullet in you instead.

 

[RatDrall]

It'll be interesting to look past the "I'm all for open carry, but..." nonsense and see the actual legal information, in the legal forum...

In AZ, I'm pretty sure that you can carry a rifle legally. Wonder what VA says?

 

[Bubba613]

Typically states issue a handgun carry permit that specifies handguns, I dont know about VA.
Standing outside a gunshop for a smoke isn't the same category and carrying through the aisles at WalMart.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I believe the concern here is: Is this at all legal? I'd also like to know what everyone else thinks on the subject considering different states allow different carrying.

Seems VA's open carry law applies to long guns as much as it does handguns. As long as it's not hidden, it appears you can carry it.

http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; ***removed the knife stuff*** he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

Texas is similar. We don't allow open carry of handguns but there is no law at all regulating the open carry of long guns. I've done it on odd occasion, riding a motorcycle to the range with a FAL slung on my back a couple of times just because....


Now, as Zoogster points out above, carrying a rifle at the ready with your hand on the grip may put you in a different place, depending on state law. Here in Texas it would be legal to carry the rifle, but carrying it in that manner would probably get you a Disorderly Conduct charge at the very least. In the OP's case it sounds like the guy was outside but still on private property that he controlled (the gun store) so that changes it a bit too.

My guess is it was legal in that situation.

 

[Sam1911]

I think there's a subtler question here that we're mostly skipping.

Sure, in many states openly wearing a handgun is legal. In a great many more, openly carrying a (slung) rifle is legal.

However, in very few of those states would walking around with a drawn handgun not open you to some kind of charge (brandishing? possibly others) -- whether or not it could be made to stick.

Where does that line fall for long guns? If you can carry a long gun slung over your shoulder, can you carry it at the ready? At what point does your method of carry -- your "posture" or "attitude" if you will -- bring you afoul of the law?

The extremes would seem to be, on the one hand a country gentleman in tweeds strolling through town with a Parker SxS double shotgun broken open and draped over his shoulder -- vs. -- a young guy in black fatigues pieing this way through downtown with an AR-15 and LBA, MOUT/UO style. Somewhere between the two, it would seem, folks are going to start getting nervous, and the local constabulary is going to find a charge which fits...

Thoughts? Anyone have a law from their state which speaks to this?

 

[Zach S]

I think I would call the owner and talk to him about it. As Zoogster stated, its not being OCed, but at the ready, and I agree with that, along with the rest of his post.

 

[Quiet]

I'm guessing it all comes down to is, when does open carry change to "brandishing".

Depends on the state's laws and the perceptions of the people that see it (open carry/brandishing) being done.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Legal, accordnig to the posted legal link, yes. Handling it in a way that makes the weapon ready to fire, while probably not illegal, it is generally a bad idea. My LGS employees all CC, but they don't have a dude at the door with a rifle at the ready. Seems like overkill and someone showing off to me. Legal? Yes. Stupid? Also, yes.

 

[dayhiker]

Thoughts? Anyone have a law from their state which speaks to this?

Sort of. It would depend on the type of AR-15.( in Connecticut)

IF it is a registered Assault Weapon, ie ... 3 evil features or a "named" version (yeah we still can't have all the bells and whistles) you are limited in where you can have possession. Loaded or Unloaded.

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(d) A person who has been issued a certificate of possession of an assault weapon under this section may possess it only under the following conditions:

(1) At that person's residence, place of business or other property owned by that person, or on property owned by another with the owner's express permission;

(2) While on the premises of a target range of a public or private club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets;

(3) While on a target range which holds a regulatory or business license for the purpose of practicing shooting at that target range;

(4) While on the premises of a licensed shooting club;

(5) While attending any exhibition, display or educational project which is about firearms and which is sponsored by, conducted under the auspices of, or approved by a law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that fosters proficiency in, or promotes education about, firearms; or

(6) While transporting the assault weapon between any of the places mentioned in this subsection, or to any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subsection (d) of section 53-202f, for servicing or repair pursuant to subsection (c) of section 53-202f, provided the assault weapon is transported as required by section 53-202f.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

But if it is a CT legal, although a REGISTERD AW is legal????, version ie....2 evil features the law is mute on carry, possession, transportation other than the standard no loaded longarms in a motor vehicle.

 

[mr.scott]

Since you can hunt on public land in Texas, there it's a no law against open carrying a long arm, and nothing mentioned about the condition you carry it in. Can shoot a deer with the gun slung on your back. The only real way they could get you on something is if you were pointing it at someone.

 

[mortablunt]

Open Carry? I support and practice it when I can.
Holding a gun while doing nothing illegal? Alright, but others might take issue with it.
Feeling up the trigger while standard around? I think that getting close to threats and brandishment.

In VA, you can OC anything you like without a permit. It can be in any state of readiness. Definitely keep the rifle in a sling; carrying an FAL but the sling isn't going to attract Police attention, but walking around with it by the carry handle will reasonably get you a MWAG call and probably some charges.

 

[Birch Knoll]

Feeling up the trigger while standard around? I think that getting close to threats and brandishment.

Not to mention terminally stupid.

 

[47CubPilot]

I don't know that I would approach an unfamiliar location with a person holding a firearm at the ready. The hair on the back of my neck would be standing on end! How would I know whats going on in there. Robbery? And he's the lookout?
At the very least I would have to sit back and observe and try to determine if this is normal for this establishment.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Maybe there was a threat of the shop being robbed but I doubt it. I don't think doing that is a good idea, can easily give people the wrong impression about us all being militant down with the government IMO.

Disclaimer: I full support OC and do it myself once in awhile just OC with a single point sling like that is ridiculous.

 

[wojownik]

Depends on where you live in VA, and what you carry. See below. On the other hand, Google § 18.2-282 ... could be considered brandishing if done in a manner that would "reasonably induce fear in the mind of another" ... the wandering finger on "indexing" the trigger brought that to mind ...

§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semiautomatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

 

[highorder]

I don't know that I would approach an unfamiliar location with a person holding a firearm at the ready. The hair on the back of my neck would be standing on end! How would I know whats going on in there. Robbery? And he's the lookout?

That's what I was thinking...

 

[DrewBegley]

Yeah I could tell he was doing it obviously for the attention and though I've grown up around firearms, it made my heart beat faster. Literally the first thing I thought was he and his buds rushed the place (it was about an hour before they closed when i showed up, maybe pretty empty at that time) and took up arms from inside the store. I thought the guy had picked up a complete AR from inside while his buddies looted the place and he loaded up with a pre-loaded mag and went to watch the front door.


Obviously, people can think things up pretty quick in their heads. My second thought was he was some jackwagon that's worked there for a year and thought he was badass with his Magpul fantastic plastic and spike's AR setup and wanted to look menacing by the door to all the girls and gangsters on the street. Either way, I'm sure if I didn't notice him as I pulled up and stepped out of my vehicle, it probably could've been easily judged legal and well within my rights if I had drawn down on him expressing to drop his weapon or that I'd shoot and if he resisted I may have been well within my rights to open fire.

All in all, I think he put himself in the perfect position for local law enforcement to show up in force and jacked up on adrenaline ready to put him on his ass.

 

[DrewBegley]

Also, according to these codes posted and what I've come across, it'd be perfectly legal to put my semi AR with a 20 round mag on a three point sling on my back and walk around my neighborhood. I'm sure Richmond PD would roll up on me and put me on my ass though. Detain me for the maximum amount of time and put me through Hell in the justice system if it got that far. They definitely wouldn't end it with a "go home" or "thats a bad idea, son". I've also noticed that carrying long arms in other states is much easier to do/acceptable than a holstered handgun.

How about the protestors I saw a couple years or so ago protesting Obama or whatever it was where there were five or so guys in the crowd with ARs on their backs?

 

[crossrhodes]

Menecing looks

I think SAM1911 hit the nail on the head. I would think anything other then slung over the shoulder, or broke open shotgun would or could be considered brandishing. It's hunting season and it's common to see people with rifles slung over their shoulder standing in the parking lot down town waiting for their hunting partner to show and head out to camp or what ever. But I never seen any of that tacticool posturing and hope I don't. I will say that I have sold a few of the multi point slings this year for hunting rifles...the reason...because the customers are vets and like the flexibility of the single and two point sling they used in the sand box.
I have to point out that the AR platform is also becoming the common hunting rifle up here.

 

[1911Tuner]

I dunno. Maybe it's legal. The question is...Why?

Carrying a rifle slung over the shoulder is one thing. That's a convenience. Carrying one with a single-point rig, hand on the grip and finger near the switch for no apparent reason smacks of Mall Ninja-ism to me...or a deep need for attention...or both.

I've got visions of assault wheelbarrows and wearing camos while furtively moving about one's residence in the dark...peering out the windows with night vision and relaying the situation to another of the same ilk via walkie-talkie.

Maybe it's just me. I dunno...

It probably wouldn't have had a good outcome if I'd seen him. I'd have been unable to keep from asking him if he was expecting trouble and laughing out loud...and he might not have been able to keep from shooting me for it.

 

[wojownik]

Carrying a rifle slung over the shoulder is one thing. That's a convenience. Carrying one with a single-point rig, hand on the grip and finger near the switch for no apparent reason smacks of Mall Ninja-ism to me...or a deep need for attention...or both.

Whatever his motives, this sounds a lot more like it could be construed as brandishing (VA 18.2-282 defines the offense as "to point, hold or brandish ... in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured). Anyone fondling a finger on a trigger as I approach would "reasonably induce fear" in my mind.

And that assumes the the guy was not in one of the jurisdictions listed in VA 18.2-287.4 in that otherwise prohibit OC of this type of weapon, in which case he's bingo for that charge.

Small town, maybe the guy knows the local PD, who knows. And even so, its bad business ... I wouldn't necessarily want to venture into a gun shop that allows that kind of behavior among employees or customers.

 

[ErikO]

OC is legal in Missouri but that law is subject to local override. That leaves us with a patchwork of laws outside the 'no you can't' section that is St Louis County.

 

[USAF_Vet]

ErikO, no pre-emption laws in Missouri?

 

[DrewBegley]

We have gun protests 'down' here all the time. You can always find a few guys with ARs on some sorta tactical sling hanging from their back along with hundreds of other protestors carrying their normal handgun or such and I've known it to be legal. I swear though that I've been told in the past by local law enforcement that long arms could only be carried where appropriate (shooting range, private property/hunting areas, educational events and gunshow type events). Now with the code I've been reading it doesn't exactly say when or where you can carry unless I missed something so what about certain big-box stores?

It's perfectly legal to carry into Wal-Mart or Target, but dontcha think the coppers'd string ya up for walkin in with yer scatter gun?