Open carry is setting us back. IMO

Status
Not open for further replies.
open carry is good for America and good for the pro gun movement.

Just like teaching a child about something that they think is scary, you have to let the antis see that guns are not evil (as though any inanimate object could be)

If Texas will ever get off their butt and start emulating Arizona I will open carry often
 
I have seen behavior by OCers that I was proud of and behavior the embarrassed and angered me as a fellow gun owner.

The important point to consider is that when you OC you effectively become an ambassador for other 2A activists. You are now under the microscope and your attitude, actions, and demeanor or being closely evaluated by others whether you notice or not.

If you act like an idiot, you may still be within your rights but you are giving all of us a black eye.

If you are friendly, engaging, and patient in with others, and enjoy explaining our constitutional rights to the uniformed and misinformed; then by all means, please OC.

If you are a misanthropic curmudgeon we don't need you.
We must spread the notion that the majority of gun owners are ethical responsible upstanding members of our communities. We are your friends and neighbors. Anything that muddies this image hurts us, anything that affirms it helps.

Is this simple enough. The basic rule when OCing, take your "good manners knob" and turn it up to 11.
 
The issue isn't whether one should be offended.

The issue isn't a 2nd amendment issue.

The OP is noting something felt by many of us, i.e., that the Open Carry movement is hurting.

It is analogous to having Ted Nugent be the voice of the pro-gun movement. You may agree with him (I generally do), but he doesn't help--he sets people against the idea of gun rights.

I think the Open Carry movement is setting us back big time. Instead of reasoned arguments about the benefits of concealed carry, and whether gun rights actually correlate with crime (the don't), what the open carry folks do is jam their rights in the faces of those whose experience hasn't prepared them for this.

To the open carry folks: Thanks a lot.
 
what the open carry folks do is jam their rights in the faces of those whose experience hasn't prepared them for this.

What is the alternative...partially open carry? Just the barrel?

To calmly, quietly carry a gun is to "jam their rights" in others faces?

You seem a reasonable fellow. We all "misspeak" at times. You might want to reconsider exactly what you offered and restate it because as it is, it is a totally ridiculous statement.
 
The argument that in your face activism may or may not actually hurt a minority effort to gain/retain their rights has gone on in many different communities. The RKBA community is no different and the debate is good to have.

Trying to hush up people within the community that are concerned about backlash from more confrontational forms of activism isn't a good idea. Logical debate and careful consideration of respectful disagreements is a good idea. Let's not assume that being a 2A supporter means the same as engaging in "group think".

There are plenty of other conversations like this one for different issues.
 
What is the alternative...partially open carry? Just the barrel?

To calmly, quietly carry a gun is to "jam their rights" in others faces?

You seem a reasonable fellow. We all "misspeak" at times. You might want to reconsider exactly what you offered and restate it because as it is, it is a totally ridiculous statement.

You either want to win, or you don't.

Those who want to win will spend time thinking about the problem from the other's point of view, and evaluate what strategies help and what strategies hurt.

Those whose interest is not in winning, but in "asserting their rights" will often find that they have cut off their nose to spite their own face.

The only people open carry "convinces" are those who are already on the side of open carry.

I'd ask you this: If open carry scares people--and there's all kinds of evidence it does exactly that--then I have to wonder what possible benefit there is from all this confrontation. It simply hardens the resolve of those who oppose guns, *and* it takes people in the middle and makes them allies of the anti's. Is this what you want?

And while it may make those who open carry feel better, if the goal is to improve the public view of guns, then it is exactly the antithesis of a strategy that would help do that.

You reach people where they are, not where you are. You have to approach the problem from their point of view, not your own. They don't give a hoot about your own, only theirs.

There are plenty of ways to do this, but those who open carry are jamming guns in the faces of people and *daring* them to oppose them.

Well, guess what--that is exactly what you're going to get.

And when those you have dared to oppose this start recruiting middle-of-the-road folks to help them get these awful guns off the streets and off the hips of the crazies who are flaunting them, you will have only yourself to blame.

I teach social change. I also do it. If you want to change people's views to align with your own, you must find arguments that resonate with their information and fears. You must reach them where they are, not where you are.

If I were an anti, I would be having a field day with this. In fact, I may use this example in my Social Change class in the fall.

If you would like to see how I would approach these issues, these two posts explain it (they're longish, but it's not a simplistic issue):

How to convert your liberal friends (to win next election)-I

How to convert your liberal friends (to win next election)-II
 
Last edited:
Those who want to win will spend time thinking about the problem from the other's point of view, and evaluate what strategies help and what strategies hurt.

Those whose interest is not in winning, but in "asserting their rights" will often find that they have cut off their nose to spite their own face.
Well said.
The NRA does tend to lean towards hunters and rifle/shotgun issues and stays out of self-defense and right to carry issues.
I've developed a lot of respect for your care in researching the things you post, but that is pure nonsense.

The NRA's name was consistent with its original charter and focus when it was founded over a century ago. Since then much has changed--but not the name. Suggesting that retaining a name that Americans have come to know over the past 130+ years means that the NRA doesn't really care about other types of guns is building a house on a shaky foundation.

And while the NRA does spend a lot of effort and money on hunting/rifle/shotgun issues they absolutely do not "stay out of self-defense and right to carry issues."
  • Every NRA periodical has a section dedicated to self-defense called the Armed Citizen.
  • NRA is supporting the McDonald case as it did the Heller case, both of which were primarily related to handguns and self-defense.
  • NRA has repeated fought and defeated municipal handgun bans in CA.
  • NRA supported the concealed carry laws during the "concealed carry movement" which aided in getting "shall issue laws" passed in many states. In one 2 year period 11 states passed NRA supported right to carry laws.
  • NRA's Refuse to be a Victim course is all about self-defense and self-protection. They offer several other courses that are also self-defense/self-protection courses.
I find it difficult to understand how an informed person who has demonstrated a dedication to factual postings could make a statement like the one you just did. To be perfectly frank, I find it very disappointing.
 
Education is key, nothing more. Some for us, but mostly for those that don't support it. April 19th has past, everyone whining about how guns are the problem (none here really) need to research the significance of April 19th, 1775 and begin to understand why it is that they are free to express their opinions on any subject they choose.
 
wow is all I- can say, I have found that there are just some people who have that whole you can't do I't attitude and just ruin the motivation and faith to get things done. They can do it so effiecently too, if I listened to everyone who told me I could'nt reload ammo I wouldnt be saving a lot of money and finding things I ENJOY. If everyone told me that you cant grow crops at 9100 altitude in the rockies, I wouldnt be growing crops that produce up to 4 thousand dollars a acre.
Instead of turning around and bashing every open carrier who post there beliefs on this thread try to explain how you think you can change things without using a melancholy armageddon attitude.

I have engaged lots of people my age group. yes my age group who never liked guns, how I did it you ask? Well I went to sheriff's office and asked them what age I can legally open carry in westcliffe colorado the deputy sat me down and throughly explained the laws to me. I find out I can do it at 18, so one day I decided to have some friends and i to go ride through town hangin out, off course the subject got up why I am carry a BP 1851 revolver and every person who didnt like it asked questions and sat down with me. We talked and listned to each other views and eventully they agreed and was no longer scared or ittimidated. POINT IS open carry does have a bad rep so we should open carry to proove that it is ok and talk to every individual who asks about it one on one and explain to them everything. DONT ATTACK THEM just state your views and listen to them. most of the time all you have to do is give them proof and facts about the truth of gun carry and crimes. theres lots of times thats all you have to do but its going to be a slow process.

OPEN CARRY AND CHANGE THE MIND OF INDIVIDUALS ONE PERSON AT A TIME AND HAVE FAITH AND PATIENCE AND UNDERSTANDING.
oh and those who want to tear me appart please try not to ruin the spirits of those who want to help, keep in mind theres some people looking at all of you for guidance and right now, well lol I'm a little disgusted, so keep this civil maybe theres some person looking for the information to understand things better about firearms and he comes across this thread, I hope no one does just that.

itd be nice to read one civil rational thread with some realistic facts and RATIONAL CALM debating.

Thankyou moderators for helping out best as you can, i feel as if some people have some good and rational things to contribute and help.
 
Open carry forces people to apply the same benefit of the doubt they expect for themselves to other citizens.
MWAG calls don't come from people who can imagine themselves responsibly possessing a firearm without doing something violent.

Firearms do not necessarily cause violence, OC makes that obvious to people who never thought about it before and makes it hard for a hoplophobe to be credible making their silly claims about firearms.

The people who don't like it and never will can sit and stew while contemplating the meaning of "shall not be infringed" ... maybe they'll push through an amendment to the Constitution to make themselves feel better, but I don't think that's too likely, do you?
 
in your face activism

hso

please explain how quietly shopping for groceries or making a bank deposit or picking up the dry cleaning with a handgun on your hip is "in your face activism"

I have not seen ANYONE suggest that a gangsta looking guy playing loud rap music with a 9 in his belt helps convince any antis any more that they suggested that a fat guy in a stained wife-beater does.

The OP is that ANYONE open carrying is bad for gun rights.
 
"theres those who speculate and theres those who act". i think someone said that once.
heres one i like "all talk no action"
nother "all hat no cattle"
 
Last edited:
explain how quietly shopping for groceries or making a bank deposit or picking up the dry cleaning with a handgun on your hip is "in your face activism"

They aren't and the OP didn't cite your situation. Keep in mind that how other's perceive us is as important as we think we're presenting ourselves. An individual quietly going about his business in every way acting and appearing to be just like everyone around them except for the fact they carry openly is confronting prejudice without being confrontational in the way they're doing it. OTOH confronting prejudice is unsettling because it forces others to examine their beliefs and risk changing them. That's emotionally charged for most people.

When we as gun owners forget that and want to up the ante to get even more attention for confronting the prejudice, we risk going from opening others to examining their prejudices to making them defensive and closed to accepting us. What point that occurs is where the debate has value.

Does a respected businessman going about the course of the day wearing a simple rig confront people's prejudices. Sure it does. Does wearing a more extravagant rig garner more attention. Sure it does. Does wearing an even more extreme rig/weapon/clothing/attitude get a lot of attention. Ohhhh yeah, but at some point the more extravagant/in your face we become we risk really closing people to our purpose.

So where on the curve between fully concealed like some 2A folks would prefer to avoid making non-2A folks uncomfortable and the in your face AK toting, slogan emblazoned T-shirt wearing, cammo clad other end of the spectrum do we think we can strike that balance between opening non-2A supporters to reevaluating their beliefs about firearms and firearms owners and demanding that they grant us the fullest version of our rights right now whether it frightens them or not.

This argument went back and forth during the civil rights struggles of the 50's and 60's with the quiet struggle advocates and the radical activists of the times. Not even history has decided whether one was more valuable than the other or whether one could have succeeded without the other, but we're doomed to fail if we don't look at every rights struggle in this country that's come before us.
 
HSO

Thank you for the well thought, well written and lengthy response.

You also bring up an interesting parallel when you mention the civil rights movement...or as I am more specifically going to use as an analogy, race relations.

If one is uncomfortable around, say, green people, the answer to make them more accepted to the general public is to have the general public meet them.

Some people might be horrified at first by the large single eye, others intrigued. (contact lens people would be excited!) But after the verde folks are known by the rest of us we realize that we have much in common. Want our kids to achieve, make better lives for our families. Own real estate. (and green folks are not competition for real estate as they like swamp land)

Back when we were mishandling race relations in this country nobody but the "antis" wanted segregation. And neither should we pro gun people.

We should strap on our guns and be ambassadors for our cause. Go out there and be normal, change the oil in our cars, buy paint at the hardware store. The "nice man" holding the elevator is a "nice man" first and then they might wonder why he has a gun on his hip.

The bottom line is that this thread has suggested that ALL open carry people are not setting us back. And it is important for the good people to get out there to dilute what damage the "mall ninjas" do.
 
If one is uncomfortable around, say, green people, the answer to make them more accepted to the general public is to have the general public meet them.
ALMOST correct. Unfortunately the part you left off is the most critical part of the equation.

The answer to make them more accepted to the general public is to have the general public meet them UNDER FAVORABLE CIRCUMSTANCES.

If we don't pick good representatives from among the "green people", if we aren't prudent in how we arrange the meeting then having the general public meet them will actually make them LESS accepted.
Back when we were mishandling race relations in this country nobody but the "antis" wanted segregation. And neither should we pro gun people.
Again, we can't seem to get past this false dichotomy that keeps being brought up.

The idea that "segregation" is the only other option is incorrect. It is not the option I'm advocating and clearly it's not the option hso describes in his post.

The key isn't stopping all OC, it's OC'ing prudently. Making sure that as a representatives of gun owners OC'ers aren't alienating people with their actions, attitude or appearance.
And it is important for the good people to get out there to dilute what damage the "mall ninjas" do.
Again, that is ALMOST correct. In reality it far more important to stop the "mall ninjas" from doing damage in the first place.

Since early in this thread I've repeatedly said that the key is the PRUDENT exercise of our rights. And there's been a lot of disagreement with that assertion. Stop and think about that for a moment.

pru·dent
1. Wise in handling practical matters; exercising good judgment or common sense.
2. Careful in regard to one's own interests; provident.
3. Careful about one's conduct; circumspect.​

So this is really the bottom line.

What is the alternative to being prudent? And even more importantly, what does it say that there are a number of OC advocates on this thread arguing against being prudent?

It's hard to imagine any stronger affirmation of the veracity of the indictment in the original post on this thread.
 
Last edited:
Go out there and be normal
and
have the general public meet them UNDER FAVORABLE CIRCUMSTANCES.

That's the issue isn't it?

To some of us OC is too confrontational at all and to others extreme staged OC where it's not "normal" or under "favorable circumstances" is needed to shake people up.

If you use the civil right movement analogy further, we have the Dr. King model on one end of the spectrum and the Black Panther's on the other. We have our equivalents and we need to understand that.
 
Open carry has never been widely practiced in my home state of New Mexico. I seriously doubt that it's been really that popular in any other state where it's legal. It turns off normally pro-gun people (not hardcore internet gunboarders). Open Carry is the gun rights movement jumping the shark IMO.
 
Open carry forces people to apply the same benefit of the doubt they expect for themselves to other citizens.

This is exactly why I am bothered by this kind of approach.

When someone FORCES you do to anything, what do you do? You resist, right?

JohnKSA said it well--"under favorable circumstances."

Those who want to "force" the anti's to confront this issue are thinking about it from their own point of view, not the point of view of the anti's. It's analogous to pushing someone on the chest--they resist.

Instead, I believe it will be more effective to look at things from the point of view of the anti's (and this is a variation of the "under favorable circumstances" argument), and create circumstances where they can entertain new ideas without being threatened by them.

In your face open carry is threatening. I've heard people say about anti's, "What do they think will happen, the gun will jump up off the table and shoot by itself?"

Well, yes, actually. People afraid of guns have seen them do horrific things in the movies. They see people pick up UZIs, one in each hand, and strafe their protagonists. (I've shot an UZI--and the idea of shooting that weapon with one hand while accomplishing anything other than decorating the sky is laughable).

They see movies like "True Lies" in which Jamie Lee Curtis drops an UZI and, as it tumbles down some steps, it keeps shooting and killing the bad guys. Lesson? A gun dropped will go off. Lesson? Guns have a mind of their own!

I'm sure everyone here can list movies and TV shows where inaccuracies about guns are rampant. Where does the non-gun public get their ideas about guns? From that junk.

Guns are scary. They make big noises. They JERK when fired. And that jerk is unsettling. They surprise you!

So when one confronts people with things that are scary, does one think a sort of desensitising is going on? No--what that does is scare the anti's, and make the middle-of-the-roaders more willing to entertain the arguments of the anti's.


What bothers me the most about all this: I think that the 2nd amendment rights we have, when exercised in this way, make it *more* likely that at some point there will be an effort to amend the constitution to modify or take away that right.

This, BTW, is why I think the 2nd amendment argument is a non-starter when discussing things with anti's. Those who are anti-gun don't care about the 2nd amendment. I believe they see it as a license to intimidate, as a mechanism whose result is a playing field that is decidedly unlevel--those with guns have an advantage over those without.

So, the way to resolve that inequity is to level the field by eliminating the guns (yes, I know there are other ways, but I'm looking at this from the point of view of the anti's, not the point of view of the RKBA people.).

I believe that the in-your-face open carry movement moves people closer to the idea of amending the constitution to restrict that right, and that is the real worst-case scenario for us.
 
Last edited:
G.A.Pster Sorry I disagree with you this is the same reasoning that put out by many when Fla started CCW. I am all for FULL And FREE 2nd Rights. We need to return the General Population mindset that Guns are normal everyday tools of life and not something reserved to Police and Military.
 
Mongoose, the problem is that you are assuming that you are going to change the mind of one (or more)anti gun liberals. I sure don't see much chance of that happening. There is a huge, well defined divide in this country between 'liberal' and 'conservative' that has hardened into concrete. The anti's would be more than happy to have nothing but CCW, as 'out of sight, out of mind', and it allows them to continue on with their attitutudes towards gun owners as knuckle dragging cretins. I don't believe that Christ Matthews, Rachel Maddow and others of their ilk will ever change.

Where I do see the OC movement doing the country a big favor is forcing LEO's, municipalities and states to actually follow the law of the land! Too many of these entitites have been making up their own laws; selectively interpreting laws against case law holdings; and in some cases, outright lying about the law just to harass and intimidate people. It really gives me hope for this country to see so many young people in their 20's standing up to these thugs and telling 'em 'this is the law, I'm within my rights, are you going to arrest me?'.

If we are ever going to return this country to a truly constitutional approach to government, then the government is going to have to be forced (on many issues) to actually follow the laws and constitution of this country.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top