Oregon SB 941 - universal registration on transfers

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Simple. John who has no record walks into a gun store and buys a gun legally. John then walks out of the gun store and goes to Bob's house, a prohibited person, with the legally acquired gun. John then sells Bob the gun that he ask John to buy (straw purchase). John then calls the sheriff and says the gun was stolen. Sheriff asks a few questions and lists the gun as stolen. Gun is found at a crime scene and John's name comes up on the OSP registry. Police question John again and he says it was stolen, he followed the law, reported it and has date, place, and officers name who took the report. They never catch Bob to question him so all they have is a stolen gun. Hard to prove it wasn't stolen and hard to prove John had anything to do with the crime because he was in Mexico on vacation when it happened and he can prove it.

See how easy that is? UBC solved absolutely nothing because Bob purchased the gun illegally.

How many times to you think John can get away with that?

FFl's have tried the "they were stolen" trick. Do it a couple of times and you get flagged and extra special scrutiny.

Have you been living under a rock somewhere? Why is it so hard to understand what a straw purchase is and why people do it?

I know exactly what a straw purchase is and why people do it. Today you don't even have to report the gun as stolen. You just say you sold it privately and you didn't get the guy's name. That is if you buy from a dealer. If you buy from a private individual there is no record at all.

If you are a gang in L.A. all you need is a clean cut looking guy in Vegas to buy guns face-to-face and drive them back to L.A.

When I was doing a few private sales a year I had people email me all the time trying to get me to sell them a gun without a CPL and DL. Guess who those folks were. Never mind, you probably don't know.

Those folks were prohibited people. You didn't sell them a gun but plenty of people will. They likely just moved on to the next ad until they found someone that didn't care or specifically wanted a completely anonymous sale.
 
How many times to you think John can get away with that?

I would say he will get away with it until they can get enough evidence to charge him with making a straw purchase and convict him.


I know exactly what a straw purchase is and why people do it. Today you don't even have to report the gun as stolen. You just say you sold it privately and you didn't get the guy's name. That is if you buy from a dealer. If you buy from a private individual there is no record at all.

If you are a gang in L.A. all you need is a clean cut looking guy in Vegas to buy guns face-to-face and drive them back to L.A.

Again, you are talking about activities that are already illegal. A private sale to an individual from out of state is illegal. The first thing you better get is a name and DL number or run the risk of arrest. I don't know anyone stupid enough to not get ID in a private sale and keep the record. Anyone else may be engaging in an illegal activity and doesn't care too much about who he is selling to.

As far as running guns into CA, or OR for that matter, I don't believe a UBC is going to stop that. All you are doing is helping me make my point here.

Are you aware that BC's are already required for a private sale at a gun show in OR? Ever actually talk to anyone who has made a private sale in OR. other than a gang member? Ever made a private sale yourself? Private sales used to be legal in WA. without a BC. Now that they aren't anymore I'll be waiting for the crime stats with firearms to drop significantly, but they won't. The sheriffs association here came out against I-594 (UBC) for a number of reasons. You can read them if you like.

https://www.voteno594.com/blog-posts/majority-of-washington-state-sheriffs-oppose-i-594/
 
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O.F.F. presents us with this handy form :

http://www.oregonfirearms.org/no-expanded-background-checks

Just dropdown menu your reps, and forward through your email acct or print and mail.


They may have all but ignored us in the commenting session, and begun to ram this one through, but your voice can still be heard.

Prozanski and Hoyle may be suckling the bloomie teat, but they don't speak for all of us !
 
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Again, you are talking about activities that are already illegal. A private sale to an individual from out of state is illegal. The first thing you better get is a name and DL number or run the risk of arrest. I don't know anyone stupid enough to not get ID in a private sale and keep the record. Anyone else may be engaging in an illegal activity and doesn't care too much about who he is selling to.

Yes, it is illegal to sell to a prohibited person or across state lines without using a FFL. However, it is very hard to enforce when no record of the sale is required. Law enforcement basically has to do a sting in order to prove that the person knowingly sold to a prohibited person.

There is not requirement to keep any record of a private sale or even provide and ID for the sale. Most states only hold a seller liable if they "know or should have known" a buyer is a prohibited person. To cover your butt all you have to do is ask if the buyer can legally purchase the gun and have that person say "yes".

Plenty of people do not ask or provide ID during a private sale. See this THR thread for plenty of examples: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=721341

As far as running guns into CA, or OR for that matter, I don't believe a UBC is going to stop that. All you are doing is helping me make my point here.
UBCs will help if they are required nationwide. They aren't nearly as effective if someone can drive a couple of hours and make a face to face sale without any ID.

Are you aware that BC's are already required for a private sale at a gun show in OR?

Yes, I am. We are talking about private sales, not sales at gun shows. In my opinion, supporters of UBCs have made a mistake by talking about "the gun show loophole". The loophole is much larger than gun shows and most guns at shows are sold by dealers with a background check. (Though I have been to gun shows in Alabama were sellers had a sign on their table that said "Private Seller, no background check required".


Ever actually talk to anyone who has made a private sale in OR. other than a gang member? Ever made a private sale yourself? [/quote]

I have not made a private sale in OR (yet, I'm about ready to advertise a Mosin). I have made private sales in Alabama. I advertised on armslist and didn't find anyone willing to do the transaction with a bill of sale. I ended up selling the guns to coworkers with a bill of sale.[/QUOTE]

The sheriffs association here came out against I-594 (UBC)

I'll take a look at the link. However, we are talking about Oregon SB 941 which is a much better bill than Washington's ballot measure I-594. Also, Sheriffs are politicians. I have no doubt that Sheriffs in rural areas were the majority of voters opposed I-594 publicly opposed it. An endorsement would mean the end of their job.
 
I'll take a look at the link. However, we are talking about Oregon SB 941 which is a much better bill than Washington's ballot measure I-594. Also, Sheriffs are politicians. I have no doubt that Sheriffs in rural areas were the majority of voters opposed I-594 publicly opposed it. An endorsement would mean the end of their job.

Many OR sheriffs have come out against this bill. I'm not seeing any who endorse it. Are you saying they aren't endorsing it because the county residents think it's a bad idea and wouldn't re-elect a sheriff that would? That's just representative gov't.

http://www.oregonsheriffs.org/news/2015/SB 941.pdf
 
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Many OR sheriffs have come out against this bill. I'm not seeing any who endorse it. Are you saying they aren't endorsing it because the county residents think it's a bad idea and wouldn't re-elect a sheriff that would? That's just representative gov't.

http://www.oregonsheriffs.org/news/2015/SB 941.pdf

That is exactly what I'm saying. Again, Sheriffs are politicians. They are elected by voters. Yes, that is representative government.

Also notice that the Oregon State Sheriffs' Association is not giving an official position on SB 941. They are not coming out against it.

I'm troubled by this reason they give:

"As law enforcement resources are stretched thin, especially in rural parts of Oregon, we are concerned about the potential increased workload created when a background indicates that a person is trying to obtain a gun illegally."

SB 941 requires the local sheriffs department to be notified if someone fails a background check. Instead of using that information as a lead and a reason to investigate that individual, they are concerned that it would increase their workload? Are they too busy handing out traffic tickets to deal with prohibited people trying to buy guns?
 
SB 941 requires the local sheriffs department to be notified if someone fails a background check. Instead of using that information as a lead and a reason to investigate that individual, they are concerned that it would increase their workload? Are they too busy handing out traffic tickets to deal with prohibited people trying to buy guns?

Well the FBI doesn't hand out traffic tickets and they don't investigate a denial either. The sheriffs dept is stretched thin where I live. A volunteer staff takes applications for CPL's and renewals one day a month. If SB 941 passes the sheriffs won't get any additional money for the costs of those investigations. They didn't in WA. The OSP certainly isn't going to do it. It's one thing to pass a bill and another to fund the mandate. The taxpayers aren't going to pay for it because most of them don't transfer firearms. Now are you willing to pay the additional administrative and enforcement cost for a UBC? I'm sure it's more than $10 when you look at the the salary, benefits, and pension of a state/county employee. I happen to know what they are because I have a 30 year WA state pension and have a close relative that has a 30 year OR pension. It would probably shock you.
 
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Well the FBI doesn't hand out traffic tickets and they don't investigate a denial either. The sheriffs dept is stretched thin where I live. A volunteer staff takes applications for CPL's and renewals one day a month. If SB 941 passes the sheriffs won't get any additional money for the costs of those investigations. They didn't in WA. The OSP certainly isn't going to do it. It's one thing to pass a bill and another to fund the mandate. The taxpayers aren't going to pay for it because most of them don't transfer firearms. Now are you willing to pay the additional administrative and enforcement cost for a UBC? I'm sure it's more than $10 when you look at the the salary, benefits, and pension of a state/county employee. I happen to know what they are because I have a 30 year WA state pension and have a close relative that has a 30 year OR pension. It would probably shock you.

Yes.
 
Awesome, if it passes, please give us your address so we can send you the bill.

Personally, I'd rather have our leaky drinking water pipes replaced with that state money. You know, the ones that give us bi-weekly brown water. Oh, you live in PDX, you dont hve that problem- my apologies. Heres a thought instead :fund rural FD's so we can get out of class 9 fire ratings, and obtain affordable homeowners insurance outside of portland, salem, and eugene. Our loyal and unwavering police could use new armor, more rounds for training, and the legacy fund for fallen officers could certainly use a bump.

But hey, this seems like a much more useful outpouring of MILLIONS of dollars per month.

Someone is going to have to pay it, as the $10 for the NICS check certainly isn't going to cover it, and as a state, we're pretty strapped.

Moving along....

The last "denial" we had at the shop entailed 2 cruisers, and four officers, and about an hour and a quarter for each.

The patron returned two days later and completed the purchase of his firearm. edit : it could have been four, i had a day off in there, and we had TWO very similar circumstance denials- both of which were in error.

Little to add regarding that awesome system.... the owner of our shop got delayed purchasing a 10/22 for his spouse two weeks ago ( as was mentioned in our brief testimony before the house). Edit : No, that wasn't me, but another partner in the firm testifying. The amount of time given to supporters of the bill in comparison to those opposed was laughable- and was laughed at openly even by some of the members of the other side. Prozanski was very firm on his sandtimer for us....not so for his side.

Yep, the owner of the shop. The multiple FFL holder, NRA certified trainer, honorably discharged high security clearance holder, federally licensed weapons dealer. That one.

They can't explain to him why.

Its not the system you make it out to be. Without complete registration, it'll never work the way you want it to. They're well aware of that, too. You've already attested, JSH1, that you favor such a scheme- so this fact must not be lost on you either.

Also of interesting note that there have been some very workable options floated by senator Thatcher that werent registration schemes, and would have obtained exactly the results desired. They were completely ignored, and the bill was instead rushed through referendum.


Lastly, I'm still waiting for that "one example" of someone who has committed a crime using a firearm, who would have been blocked from obtaining one using this flawed system.

Certainly wouldn't have blocked any of the most recent high-profile crimes involving firearms, and none of our local sheriffs or chiefs of police, or rank and file LE that I have actually spoken with, and there are MANY. can recall one either.

But hey, even if that " one person protected" is actually a phantasm, far be it from me to rain on your registration parade.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Again, Sheriffs are politicians. They are elected by voters. Yes, that is representative government.

Yes, thats the will of the people speaking- and it works exactly as intended, thank you. If perhaps you prefer a system where say, a small portion of moneyed citizens get to have their voices outweigh the others...perhaps now would be a good time to disclose that, too. I mention this only because you seem to believe that that somehow our system is operating incorrectly- and I'd like for you to expound on that belief for the benefit of us , to better understand your position and line of thinking.
 
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Yes, thats the will of the people speaking- and it works exactly as intended, thank you. If perhaps you prefer a system where say, a small portion of moneyed citizens get to have their voices outweigh the others...perhaps now would be a good time to disclose that, too. I mention this only because you seem to believe that that somehow our system is operating incorrectly- and I'd like for you to expound on that belief for the benefit of us , to better understand your position and line of thinking.

You have the chance to vote for your representatives every election as do I. If this passes it won't be because "a small portion of moneyed citizens get to have their voices outweigh the others". It will be cause the majority of elected representatives vote for it knowing full well that they will have to face the voters come election time. Our system is working just as intended.

I have no doubt that if this bill was offered as a ballot initiative it would pass just as the the one in Washington did.
 
I have no doubt that if this bill was offered as a ballot initiative it would pass just as the the one in Washington did.

If the people who opposed I-594 had put 10 M into that initiative like the AG crowd did it wouldn't have passed. If your opponent outspends you 10 to 1 in a campaign (attack ads with false and misleading information) you are going to lose no doubt about it. The old adage "you can always spend too little in a campaign, but you can never spend too much" applies here. We had similar bills here in WA but they never went anywhere because the legislators knew it was political suicide, and it would have been. If you watch very carefully how these dim wit OR legislators fair who proposed and vote for this you will watch their demise in short order just like in CO. They might as well just bend over and kiss their political careers goodbye. Your representative gov't will speak loud and clear.
 
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I guess we will see. The recall in Colorado was successful but both Republicans were defeated in the next general election.



I personally think ballot initiatives are the way forward for UBCs in the USA.
 
It's like you don't get that WE DON'T WANT THEM.

I get it. I don't expect UBCs to be popular on THR. However, you don't seem to get that your opinion isn't shared by the majority of US citizens.

We are about to see if Washington was a fluke. You can expect UBC ballot initiatives in Nevada, Arizona, and Maine for the fall.
 
jerkface11 said:
That's why democracy is a failed system. You cannot allow majority vote to over ride rights.
And your alternative is?????? A dictatorship or monarchy would be fine as long as the dictator or monarch thought the way you do. It would be a lot less fine if he didn't.

And indeed the Founding Fathers installed a system of checks and balances to mitigate the possibility of a tyranny of the majority.

The reality is the we live in a pluralistic, political society, and not everyone thinks as we do. People have varying beliefs, values, needs, wants and fears. People have differing views on the proper role government. So while we may be using the tools the Constitution, our laws and our system give you to promote our vision of how things should be, others may and will be using those same tools to promote their visions.

The Constitution, our laws, and our system give us resource and remedies. We can associate with others who think as we do and exercise what political power that association gives us to influence legislation. We have the opportunity to try to join with enough other people we can elect legislators and other public officials who we consider more attuned to our interests. And we can seek redress in court. And others who believe differently have the same opportunities.

You can't expect everyone to agree with you.

JSH1 said:
...I don't expect UBCs to be popular on THR. However, you don't seem to get that your opinion isn't shared by the majority of US citizens....
And the reality appears to be the at least in a number of States the idea of UBCs is popular amongst the body politic. While various members have, in this thread, explained why UBCs might be a bad idea, why they're unlikely to serve any useful purposes, and why we don't like them, it looks like we've failed to convince enough voters that our reasoning is sound.

So at least in those States where there is public support for UBCs we need to either figure out why people want them and ways to overcome their support for UBCs.

We need to find ways to deal effectively with the reality of the situation -- not just complain. The good people of Washington State might well have been overconfident about their ability to stop I-594 and are now saddled with an awful UBC law voted in by a substantial majority.
 
I'd love to see some sort of factual evidence that UBCs would lower the crime rate one bit.

There aren't any because they don't. It was the same with the AWB. Note the proclamation by the Oregon Sheriffs Org.

While we believe SB 941 will prevent some from purchasing a firearm they are not legally entitled to own and possess, we aren’t convinced that the bill will prevent criminals from obtaining access to firearms.

These are the folks that deal with criminals on the street everyday, not some legislator dialing for donations to their campaigns.

How much clearer do they need to be. If they thought it was worthwhile they would have endorsed it. Does anyone think they enjoy shoot outs with criminals? My guess is they would rather just give out tickets for traffic violations and live to enjoy a pension and see their kids graduate from college..
 
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I'd love to see some sort of factual evidence that UBCs would lower the crime rate one bit.

How do I provided factual evidence to prove that UBCs are effective when we haven't implemented UBCs? You are asking for data that does not exist.
 
So you support them based on a gut feeling?

I support UBCs based on logic. The data we have shows that the vast majority of weapons used in crimes do not come from legal gun dealers? Why? Prohibited people are prevented from purchasing guns from dealers due to background checks. It is logical to extend the same requirements to private sales.
 
I support UBCs based on logic. The data we have shows that the vast majority of weapons used in crimes do not come from legal gun dealers? Why? Prohibited people are prevented from purchasing guns from dealers due to background checks. It is logical to extend the same requirements to private sales.

Then by you're logic you must support BC's for ammo sales also. Criminals can buy ammo where ever they want without a BC now. Why stop at BC's for guns?
 
I support UBCs based on logic. The data we have shows that the vast majority of weapons used in crimes do not come from legal gun dealers? Why? Prohibited people are prevented from purchasing guns from dealers due to background checks. It is logical to extend the same requirements to private sales.

And how would you enforce mandatory BCs on private sales?
 
Folks, this thread has been derailed debating UBC merits and has been moved to Activism Discussion. We went through this in the discussions of the fallacies and flaws of Washington's I594, but you can hash it all again for Oregon's SB 941 instead of read that thread if ya'll like.

A new thread on a plan or plans on how to actually stop the Antis in Oregon should be started and kept focused on that critical task.
 
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